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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

charging problem

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n8terry

02-26-2005 22:05:28




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I have a 454 IH utility with alternator and internal regulator. The alternator is putting out close to 14.0 volts to the battery.

My problem is I am not getting any amperage to show on the tractor amp gage. It does show a slight discharge when I turn on the switch, which tells me that it should be in working order.

thanks for any advice you guys may have.




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Bob M

02-27-2005 08:35:45




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 Re: charging problem in reply to n8terry, 02-26-2005 22:05:28  
Presuming the battery is in good shape (holds a charge and will crank the engine) and your voltmeter is accurate, 14 volts measured at the battery says charging system is working fine.

Problem then is the ammeter hand is somehow sticking and won't go to the + side of center. Verify by taking a small magnet and bringing it close to the face of the ammeter. Depending on how you orient the magnet it will cause the hand to deflect one way or the other from center. If you cannot cause the hand to move to the + side, replace the ammeter!

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Jon H

02-27-2005 08:12:41




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 Re: charging problem in reply to n8terry, 02-26-2005 22:05:28  
The fact that your amp guage shows a slight discharge when the accessory load is connected tells me that the battery and accessory load are correctly connected to the amp guage. The fact that your voltage reading at the battery is near 14V tells me that the alternator is charging the battery. What seems to be missing,is that the alternator output is not being indicated on the amp guage. The alternator output (BAT stud on alternator rear)must be connected to the battery in a way that bypasses the amp guage. If you check the wiring at the amp guage,it should have a single heavy wire on one termimal that connects to the battery,usually connected at the starting switch/solenoid. The other terminal on the amp guage should have 2 or more wires connected,this would be the accessory load(lights,ignition etc)This is the terminal where the alternator output wire should be connected. With the battery alone connected to one amp guage terminal,and the accessory load and alternator output connected to the other,the amp guage can correctly indicate both accessory load drawn from the battery and charge current going into the battery.

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jdemaris

02-27-2005 06:41:55




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 Re: charging problem in reply to n8terry, 02-26-2005 22:05:28  
If you are sure it is actually showing a slight discharge with the ignition on and engine
not running - i.e. the gauge isn't just stuck in that position - then you know that current is
being drawn FROM the battery and being displayed on the ampere gauge. And, if you
are sure the battery is coming up to 14 volts when running (if it shows 14 volts when
NOT running you've problems with your voltmeter), then current IS flowing to the
battery when running. So, that leaves you with a few options for why the gauge does not
show a charge. #1 - the charge circuit from the alternator output is wired in a way that it
is bypassing the gauge but is still connected to the battery. This can happen just from
having the wire on the wrong terminal of the gauge. #2 - as aforementioned, the gauge is
not working in one direction. #3 You've got a shunt-wired gauge, and NOT a direct
reading gauge. These are commonly used to cut down on wire sizes to distant gauges.
They provide a representative reading and not an actual reading. As far as electric analogies - in my opinion, voltage is the "pressure" and/or potential,
and "current" measured in amperes, is the rate of flow. Compare it to a water faucet - if
turned off and your system is set at 40 PSI - then that 40 PSI is analogous to voltage. Once you turn the faucet on, the it flows at the rate of 5 gallons per minute - that is
analogous to amperes. And, if the water pipes are half-clogged thus impeding the water
flow, that is "resistance" any way you look at it. I'll stop with the analogies; they are not
perfect, but close enough. As far as replacing the ampere gauge with a voltmeter - I do not believe one is better
than the other. They both tell you different things and neither tells the whole story of
system condition. In an ideal setup, you'd have both.

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dr.sportster

02-27-2005 06:18:28




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 Re: charging problem in reply to n8terry, 02-26-2005 22:05:28  
Me too:nothins wrong.Volts are the push Amps are the pull.You got the push but nothing is pulling.Thats OK.



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txblu

02-27-2005 05:59:45




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 Re: charging problem in reply to n8terry, 02-26-2005 22:05:28  
Agree with John,

Might turn on your headlights or put something across the battery to discharge it (some) and then see if you get a charge indication on startup.

Using an Alternator says 12v system on your tractor which says current is half what it would be on a 6v system. Your ammeter may be 80 amp (like used on 6v systems) and if so you will have a hard time seeing anything; even what John said. A 30 ampere gauge will give you a better chance.

Since it is a mechanical device and your tractor is 30+ yrs old, water could have gotten into the mechanism and rusted out the works.

14v at the battery with a good ground to complete the circuit says that your charging ckt is doing it's job; at least attempting it.

I have seen batteries that were dead/dying that had high internal resistance such that you could not charge them at a very high current....like a couple of amperes max. Even on a 30 amp gauge you would have a hard time seeing anything.

With the switch on, and nothing being fed but your ignition, you should have a max of only 4-5 amperes which on a 30 amp gauge would show (if your points happened to be closed) but wouldn't see on an 80 amp gauge. Pushing the start button would only be a few more amps to energize the starting solenoid; still not much to see.

A pair of 35w headlights and rear light (if you had them) would be visable with the engine (alternator output) off.

My 2c

Mark

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john in la

02-27-2005 05:09:36




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 Re: charging problem in reply to n8terry, 02-26-2005 22:05:28  
While I can not be 100% sure because I am not there I suspect you have no problem.

A tractor uses very little power. You have no radio or power windows to draw amps so the alternator does not need to replace them. In fact after it has recharged the battery from power lost during cranking the alternator is on easy street from then on.

The fact that it shows a discharge some times makes me think the gauge is working.

If you want a better way to see what is going on with the battery replace the amp gauge with a volt gauge. If you need help wiring it let us know.

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Gerald J.

02-27-2005 07:36:21




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 Re: charging problem in reply to john in la, 02-27-2005 05:09:36  
I disagree. A volt meter shows little of use. It sure doesn't show that a battery is taking charge, maybe if the meter is good enough it might show the charging voltage is available. It won't show there's a load with no charging either. A good ammeter will show energy into and out of the battery which is what is important in battery maintenance.

Gerald J. (Electrical Engineer by trade).



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txblu

02-28-2005 04:36:35




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 Re: charging problem in reply to Gerald J., 02-27-2005 07:36:21  
Do agree (Retired EE by trade....36 yrs). Other point is that until digital meters, it was hard to tell what kind of condition your battery was in....let's see was that 12.375 volts or 12.756 volts; cross referencing to battery temp and specific gravity.....hmmmmm ???

With an ammeter, hook up a charger and you know right away how discharged it is.....unless it is high impedanced and essentially dead.

My 2c

Mark

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jdemaris

02-27-2005 15:03:57




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 Re: charging problem in reply to Gerald J., 02-27-2005 07:36:21  
I agree. Voltmeters are used because they are cheaper to hook up, and also, due to the high charging rates of many modern systems, are cheaper to install than a 100 amp shunt-wired ampere gauge - and a 100 amp (or more) direct reading ampere gauge would be even more costly. I like to have both, but if given a choice, will take an ampere gauge over an voltmeter.



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txblu

02-28-2005 04:37:41




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 Re: charging problem in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 15:03:57  
Hello j.

Mark



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