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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres

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txblu

02-25-2005 06:21:58




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Jon,

Your comments: "With only a few exceptions,Chevy not being one of them,10 psi per 1000 rpm is enough for a heavy duty truck or even a race engine. 10 at idle and 30 at 3000 is plenty. A high pressure or high volume pump on a chevy just causes faster distributor gear wear.
..... ..... .."

Respectfully asking: Would you mind sharing with us the origin of your comment concerning 10/1000 and the reason why I should believe you?

If you are a reliable source of information I will be very grateful. I have worried for years about low oil pressure, especially in the GM 350.

I have a Ford and Dodge and the pressure locks right in in the 50ish psi range regardless of idle or 2500 rpm, regardless of hot or cold.

!@#$%^&*()_ Chev is all over the place. Been told they use a high volume, low pressure pump and don't do as others do which is to have a high press, low volume pump and a press relief valve which is what the other 2 must use or they couldn't maintain a steady pressure under all those variables.

Well I know the physical relationship pv=kt and I don't buy the Chevy logic; not yet anyway. Course I haven't done any research on engine lubrication system types to understand why there are the differences mentioned. Guess if I was all that curious I'd have done that. Maybe I will if still concerned after your reply.

Have a Perkins diesel which looses pressure when at operational temp and at idle it goes to around 15 psig at about 800 rpm idle. Don't want to overhaul it as it runs good and the Perk has lots of parts to fool with, but would like to stop worrying about pressure drop off at idle. My other tractors hold at least 30 at idle. (Use the same type 15w-40 or 50 in all engines)

Thanks,

Mark

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dr.sportster

02-25-2005 13:37:51




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 06:21:58  
Chevrolet Racing Engine ,By Bill Jenkins"We have previously touched upon the efficient nature of the smallblock oiling.It provides very adequate lubrication,even at 10,000 RPM engine speeds.A big advantage that the Chevrolet system has over other designs is that it performs this task with a relativly small volume of oil and at relatively modest line pressures." Note Jenkins went to Cornell,Smokey went to college engineering somewhere also.Now will you guys let 37 chief enjoy his new motor already.Thank you.

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Jon H

02-25-2005 09:26:42




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 06:21:58  
The 10 psi per 1000 rpm rule of thumb comes from engine building advice of several big name race engine builders,A fellow Texan named smokey Y being one of them. In my 20 years of building dirt track race engines,those numbers have proven reliable. I have been told that the reason chevy's oil pressure varies more is that a chevy gear pump has more internal leakage than a Ford gear rotor type,so it maintains less pressure at low rpm. My comment about not using a high pressure or high volume pump on a chevy is from experience and comments from other engine builders. Chevy engines do not seem to gain any reliability from a high volume or high pressure pump,,but the extra power required to turn one of these pumps causes much faster wear of the distributor drive gears,especially in a cammed up race engine that idles at 2000 rpm with cold 50 wt in the pan and the oil guage at 80 psi.
The exception is engines like the Ford 351M and 400. Ford built that engine family on the same bore spacing as the little 289-302 engines so they could use the same tooling to build them. The increased HP and torque from these larger engines required larger than 289-302 size bearings to carry the load. With the narrow "smallblock"bore spacing,Ford had no room to make the bearings wider,so they had to go to larger diameter. I believe the 400 has huge 4 inch diameter main bearings. A bearing journal that large spinning at up to 5000 rom has tremendous surface speed and needs a lot of oilflow to keep it cool. Also a bearing that is large diameter and narrow tends to leak a lot of oil in the gap between the crank journal and bearing sides. For these reasons Ford insists that you should have 70-100 psi of oil pressure on those engines for race or even heavy towing use,that takes a high volume/pressure pump. I hope this sheds a little light on my comments.

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Jon H

02-25-2005 09:51:53




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Jon H, 02-25-2005 09:26:42  
I missed you question about oil pumps in my first post. All automotive oil pumps that I have seen,chevy included have a pressure regulator valve built into the pump. There was also the question about welding the oil pickup tube in a chevy pump. This advice is almost manditory on a race engine where the vibration of 8000 rpm will oftem shake the pickup out of the pump. My caution is to weld then quickly cool the weld so you do not heat/weaken the pressure relief spring and cause a low oil presure problem.
One other point that pertains to older engines with the old flat tappet camshafts more than the newer ones with roller cams. The camshaft is almost totally lubricated by oil thrown off the crankshaft and rods. an engine with a "loose" bottom end will do a better job of lubricating the cam than a tight one that opens the pump pressure regulator and dumps excess oil back into the pan. This is important on a high performance cam with stiff valve springs.

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txblu

02-26-2005 06:15:00




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Jon H, 02-25-2005 09:51:53  
Sounds good enough for me. Thanks for your time. I read your replies first so now I'll go read the rest and quit worrying.

Mark



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tlak

02-25-2005 09:03:07




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 06:21:58  
I did some research on my vehicle 4.3 engine because of what appeared to be low oil pressure and I came up with the same thing. 10per1000. This vehicle had 50k when I got it and now has 160k so I dont guess the oil pressure was too much of a problem.



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Coloken

02-25-2005 08:14:16




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 folow up in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 06:21:58  
Now that we got this all figgured out...
I still like to see a good strong oil pressure reading at all speeds. Then there is the tractor engine that when new, held 30 pounds and now can barly raise the gauge when wraped up.... indicates its about to go. To judge a tractor engine by oil pressure we have to know what it is supposed to be for that make. From the original post on a 350 rebuilt. I had one of those that was fitted on the loose side. Hated it for all the years I drove it. Considered it sloppy work.

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Coloken

02-25-2005 07:13:16




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 06:21:58  
Going to put in my 2 cents.
To lubricate bearing, the oil needs to hold the two pieces of metal apart. This depends on the oil, molecular strength, temp etc. Pressure has nothing to do with it. BUT, enough pressure must be there to deliver oil to all parts of the engine and enough volume to cool the parts. In a low pressure engine, with a good pump, some places might not get enough. So his rule of thumb sounds OK to me. I'm not too good with words, so hope my wording is taken like I mean and not picked apart.
Kenny

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txblu

02-25-2005 07:43:59




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Coloken, 02-25-2005 07:13:16  
Well taken. I have always pondered what you say and maybe I get surface tension and pressure confused.

Got me to thinking.

Since oil pressure runs in the 10's of psi and the pressure on the bearings of an engine like a 350 is probably in the 100's of psi, it's silly for me to think that the oil pressure is what's holding the metallic surfaces apart.

It has to be the surface tension of the oil; it's ability to stay between the metallic surfaces and not be squished out.

So that leaves (as you said) enough pressure (from the pump) to push the oil through the engine for cooling purposes.

Thinking more about different viscosities; Then it looks like the higher viscosities are necessary at higher temps to keep the oil thicker to keep the pressure up so that an adequate volume of oil can flow (be pushed) thru the engine to keep it cool (and to flush out any combustion crud).

If the oil doesn't flow adequately, the temp of the oil exceeds it's breakdown value (probably at the bearing surfaces), the oil breaks down, quits lubricating (looses it's surface tension characteristics), and you get engine wear.

Makes sense.

Thanks alot.

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Farmer Gene (NW WI)

02-25-2005 07:09:30




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 06:21:58  
According to a haynes repair manual I have, it lists the minimum oil pressures for chevy engines. 4.3,5.0 and 5.7 at 1000 RPM-6 psi 2000 RPM-18 psi 7.4 engine at 500 RPM-10 psi 2000 RPM-25 psi
No maximum pressures are given. These numbers are with the engine at operating temperature.



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joe e-tx

02-25-2005 09:26:29




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Farmer Gene (NW WI), 02-25-2005 07:09:30  
just checked my gm service manual.same specs.6@1000,18@2000,24@4000. hot.4.3-4.8-5.3 (2005)1/2 ,3/4 1 ton pick up
joe



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txblu

02-25-2005 07:31:37




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Farmer Gene (NW WI), 02-25-2005 07:09:30  
Well sir, that's official enough I'd say. I respect Haynes, Motor, and Chilton Manuals data.

That says right there that I should expect the oil pressure to vary as a function of rpm's whether or not I understand why.

Thank you very much.

Mark



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Farmer Gene (NW WI)

02-25-2005 10:22:45




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 07:31:37  

you mentioned Motor"s manual, I always liked Motors better than the other manuals and always tryed to buy one every few years to keep current with the years, but when I went to buy one a number of years back, I was informed they were out of business, you wouldn"t happen to know when they quit and why? thanks, Gene



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txblu

02-26-2005 06:21:24




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Farmer Gene (NW WI), 02-25-2005 10:22:45  
No I don't. My latest was 1969. I too looked for them and couldn't find them and had to go to Chilton and finally Haynes..... but they're better than nothing.

I liked the Motor's engine specs.

Enjoyed the yak.

Mark



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1945 A

02-25-2005 08:04:58




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to txblu, 02-25-2005 07:31:37  
I don"t know beans from horse apples when it comes to engineering specs., and all that, but have built (overhauled) several small block Chevys over the years.
As a matter of habit, I always replace the oil pump. I"ve used both the standard version, and also the "high volume" models. With both models, my experience has been, that with all new bearings, etc, idle rpm (I always considered 750 as an idle speed), oil pressure was typically around 20 psi, and operating rpm would typically yield around 40 psi, using 10w30 oil. Not saying others are wrong, just relaying my experiences.

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Dean K

02-25-2005 14:36:21




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to 1945 A, 02-25-2005 08:04:58  
Just wanted to say thanks for posting this info, puts my fears to rest concerning my 94 350. Dean K.



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txblu

02-26-2005 06:18:38




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 Re: Jon H...Chev 350 oil pres in reply to Dean K, 02-25-2005 14:36:21  
Mine too.



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