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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Another Bio Diesel Question

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JWhite

02-09-2005 20:53:58




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During a discussion at work about the bio diesel (watching willie nelson running his bus) we got to talking about why its not available. After the 50% less power with 150% the cost was debated, I started to remember something I read where some cities don't want bio diesel. They said something to the effect that the emisions of a bio engine does something different to the enviroment (air) than the petro engine. Anyone else heard this?

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Mike (WA)

02-10-2005 12:30:48




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Seems like there has been some experimentation with other plants, to produce more oil per acre/ or per dollar input. If memory serves, it looked like industrial canola (rapeseed) looked more promising than soybeans. Also some other plants I was not familiar with.



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paul

02-10-2005 11:01:40




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Minnesota will require 2% bio in all diesel as soon as the oil plant is operating that is under construction - this will ratchet up to 5% over time. We already mandate 10% ethanol in all gas, the legislature is debating raising that to 20%. We also have quite a few wind farms on the Buffalo Ridge for electricity.

The bean oil will help add lubricity to the fuel, which is being taken out with the low sulfur laws.

Your percentages are just a tad off..... The btu is pretty close. The cost is relative - big oil gets a lot of subsidies and is a mature industry. Producing fuel from beans is a fairly new thing & needs to achive ecconomy of scale, efficiency, and so forth.

It''s not like bio fuel will answer all our problems, but sure seems to be a good start. But, I feel sorry for states who stay in the backwaters on these issues, you will fall behind trying to save a few pennies now and put your head in the sand....

--->Paul

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Rauville

02-10-2005 08:10:16




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Last Friday two gentlemen stopped in town on their way to the state capital to promote in-state fuel resources.
Their two vehicles consisted of a late model Chevy 4x4 pickup that was operating on 80% ethanol and 20% soy oil. The other vehicle was a 1988 Chevy Corsica operating on hydrous ethanol (95% ethanol and 5% water).
They said both fuels are registered with the EPA, and exceed all standards set by ASTM.

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Gerald J.

02-10-2005 07:37:52




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Look at the web page for a soy diesel producer. I posted the link below. http://www.soypower.net/

Most users I hear of say soy diesel burns cleaner with noticeably less soot and has better lubricity for pumps and engines than straight no sulfur diesel these days. Those cities afraid of soy diesel are afraid of anything new. Do they use electricity or do they depend on horses for their trolleys yet?

Besides the soy meal from the oil extraction plant, the fuel process produces a lot of impure glycerin as a side product. One of the chemical engineers at West Central's plant told me it was readily sold. If you look up glycerin in the Merck Chemical Index, you will see its a base material for a very large number of products.

And soy oil is pretty good for a cooking oil without much processing other than pressing from the bean.

Gerald J.

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dej(JED)

02-10-2005 07:25:08




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
We have done a lot of testing work on both biodiesels, ethanol and bio lube oils at our labs. They all work well and when the pricing scenario is finally worked out they will become feasible. When you do the economics of ethanol production, as is also the case with biodiesels and bio lubes, bear in mind that you make more than simply the finished bio products. CO2 and animal feed residuals are 2 marketable bi products from the processes and they have a good market value. You can't look at it in terms of one product per bushel only. The big cost is the initial plant setup in terms of the long term pay back. The trick is going to be in getting investors, who can live with something less than an overnite, huge return on their money..

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JT

02-10-2005 06:55:10




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Along this same line, I read a magazine article the other day where a guy in GA is growing peanuts, putting them in a press and sqeezing the oil out of the peanets, then adding rubbing alchohal and lye, mixing it all together, letting it sit for a while to seperate, then siphon off the oil off the top and can be used as a replacement for diesel fuel. The guy who wrote the article was a friend of the guy doing this, he used used oil from restaraunts and did the same thing, used it in a salamander heater, and it burned as well as kero, just smelled like fish. The guy with the peanuts then sold the by product for cattle feed, it is very high in protein. The remaing stuff after drawing off fuel/oil was a glycerin product, same thing used in hand cream. My question, have any of you all ever heard of this and if you have does it work. If you could get used cooking oil, put $5.00 worth of rubbing alchohal and lye in this and get fuel to run in trucks and tractors, that would sure cut cost of running this equipment. Now the drawback, article also said the EPA classified used cooking oil as hazerdous material. Go figure.

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Seth_ia

02-10-2005 18:08:17




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JT, 02-10-2005 06:55:10  
That guy is not making a replacement for diesel, it is diesel. That is how you make bio-diesel. I have made small amounts in a college lab and then ran it through an engine, worked great. To make bio-diesel you bring a mixture of oil with a little bit of lye and gas line heat(alchol) up to about 170 degrees F. Then you seperate the bio-diesel off from the by products of glycerin and something else.

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Paul in Mich

02-10-2005 06:44:12




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
We have bio-diesel available here in Mid-Michigan, however farmers are reluctant to use it because of the cost, and it doesnt store over the harsh winter well as it gells. To add additives to retard gelling adds to the increased cost. Maybe if regular diesel hits the $3.50 to $4.00 per gal. price, then bio-diesel will become economic. As of now, however, using it only satisfies, somewhat, the environmentalists.

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Randy SE-MN

02-10-2005 05:48:34




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Costwise, I always wondered how much soy oil you got out of a bushel of soy beans. I watch AG-Day every morning, and one of their little trivia questions as they went to commercial was that same question... the answer was 1.4 gallons of oil per five dollar bushell of beans. That makes it REAL expensive in my view. Just add in processing and tranfer costs, and now it's almost cost prohibitive at this point. AND if you choose to make it yourself, you must (in some states) report this to your government of your production so they can asses you road use tax on it. Seem like a sticky proposition. I'd like to learn more about it myself.

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JT

02-10-2005 07:00:39




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to Randy SE-MN, 02-10-2005 05:48:34  
What do they do with the byproduct of soybeans after squeezing the oil out of it?? If it can be used as cattle feed, or something else, it should lower the cost per gallon, I know it does/will not but if you were to do it yourslef and have livestock, it could cut feed costs?????



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paul

02-10-2005 11:10:35




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JT, 02-10-2005 07:00:39  
Soy oil & soy meal - you see those 2 products traded on the markets. You do not throw the soy meal away, it is worth about as much as the oil in feed value.

Just like ethanol, you make the fuel, you make DDG for feed, and you make the fizzy stuff for pop - three products from the raw corn, not just fuel.

Some folks that don't like bio-fuels do some fuzzy math or omit things. :)

There is still a ways to go, the bio fuels are a small low-budget baby industry. You know ethanol facts & figures from 3 years ago are outdated by 20%? That is how much efficiency they are still gaining. Same will be with biodiesel fuels. Takes a while to come up to speed.

Won't be the answer to all problems, but it can help a little.

--->Paul

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BobMo

02-10-2005 05:30:16




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
I think you got your numbers mixed up. I watched the same program and your numbers don't seem right.



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RustyFarmall

02-10-2005 04:21:59




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Are you sure of your facts? It just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would even try to use it if it cost 50% more and produced 50% less. That just isn't good economics.



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Greywolf

02-10-2005 05:38:08




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-10-2005 04:21:59  
In MN many of the govn owned vehicles are required to run a blend of bio in some areas. Ethanol is 10% mandatory state wide, can only get non ethanol for small engines etc in limited areas.

Regardless of the output/price, to me it says Willie is showing he's supportive of getting off dependance of petro products and supportive of American agriculture. Not such a bad thing....we as farmers aren't doing a whole lot to promote the product. Change in life is inevitable and human nature resists change so what's happening is normal.

There are many things in todays life that cost 50% more and defy economics and yet many many ppl continue using the products. Specialty lube company's, premier fertilizers, Caddilacs vs chevy the list goes on and on and on.

Willie is using it because #1 he believes in it and #2 he can afford it.

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Bob

02-10-2005 01:01:41




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to JWhite, 02-09-2005 20:53:58  
Yeah, the exhaust smells like french fries, which makes people hungry. The result is more fat people.

Big problem to solve there, before biodiesel can be declared safe!



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ebbsspeed

02-10-2005 12:37:14




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to Bob, 02-10-2005 01:01:41  
So render the lard from the fat people when they expire and use it for fuel as well.....



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Bob

02-10-2005 18:28:00




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 Re: Another Bio Diesel Question in reply to ebbsspeed, 02-10-2005 12:37:14  
ebb, that's NASTY!!!



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