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OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, will

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Kirk Grau

01-14-2005 09:19:49




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Bought our little farmette/piece of heaven about 3 years ago during drought conditions here in South Central PA. Now after two of the wettest years on record we have some drainage issues that were not predicted.

The area directly behind the barn is the lowest point on the front half of the property and turns into a mud bowl when it has been raining for a while. Of course being next to the barn it also receives the most traffic, both foot and horse, as any place on the property. I would like to develop a gravel drive through this area at a reasonable cost. Have had an excavator out to talk about some drainage tile work, but $4000 estimate was enough to make us think about alternatives.

What are chances of having a driveway last under light weight traffic (foot/horse/drag occasionally with 9n) conditions? This area will have water standing in it for weeks at a time depending on how much it has rained. Also, the clay soil in this area is ideal for lining a pond so the water does not drain away very well. Will the Geotex Fabric help keep the drive stabililized?

Thanks to all who offer an opinion,

Kirk

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Can't even use my name

01-16-2005 18:20:33




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
Two years ago the neighbor wanted a drive in front of her barn and on around the side. Part was sand the bigger share was in muck. I just started high and used the stone from an old rail road. Dumped a few loads and used the skid loader to lay it out then kept backing on what I just layed out and spreading it till all was done. Ended up being from 6" to about 16". Still hasn't settled. And that muck gets nasty with anything over an inch of rain.

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Don-Wi

01-15-2005 14:15:56




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
Use screenings They hold up almost like concrete under light traffic. We used to have a slop hole that our cows had to walk through so we ordered 2 loads of screenings and spread it around a little bit. Cows have been dry for a good year now.
Donovan from Wisconsin



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Kirk Grau

01-15-2005 10:03:18




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
Just to answer a few questions and maybe rephrase my original thoughts.

I am wondering how you think a drive will hold up if I just try to raise it locally through this area with some kind of base without doing any drain work. The pricing I had did involve draining a larger area (approx. 100'X 300') and was shopped between 3 excavators I know. After this discussion I might try to refine this down to this specific area. I suspect that the other areas would drain down to this area so they would still be improved.

The high area is about 9-10 feet above this area before it starts to drop down toward the back of the property.

Thanks to everyone for input so far.

Kirk

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Al in PA

01-14-2005 17:00:27




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
We've been experiencing a monsoon here in south-central PA! I'm in northern York county. You should be able to find someone to run a 700' trench with a backhoe at a reasonable rate. There used to be 7 backhoes within 1.5 miles of me - down to 4 now. The going rate is $50/hour, but I've got a neighbor who will do it for $30/hour if I let him do the work when it fits his spare time. He ran a 60' trench from my house to the new well in just a few hours through that hard clay when it was frozen in January three years ago (after the three years of drought that ended in a dry well two days before Christmas!). We always seem to have either too little or too much water around here.

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jhill

01-14-2005 15:49:19




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
What is the difference in elevation between the highest and lowest spots? You might be able to cut a waterway thru the high spot and use the material removed to fill in at the barn. I have done this with a plow and a 3 pt scoop.



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JK-NY

01-14-2005 13:54:19




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
A couple thoughts to go with the good acvice already given-- is it possible to raise the grade in this low area (fill in the low spot), either with fill and/or bringing in a dozer and using on site material ?Does rain water off the roof of your building contribute to this wet area??Maybe gutters or other diversion of runoff could help.Not sure how big or low this area is , but if you can get your driveway up out of the mud and standing water it will help alot. If there is not a huge rush to do this , you may be able to get some good hard fill for free

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PatMx

01-14-2005 12:52:51




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
To add a little to what EngineerJoyce said.....

See if you can find a small compactor to rent, walk behind if the drive is going to be short. Then before you put down the fabric compact the subgrade. Lay down the fabric and spread crushed rock (I'd say use road base, ask at the gravel pit for it) or 3/4 minus crusher run (that's the rock right after it's crushed, and before it's screened to meet gradation, should be cheaper) and compact that after you spread it.

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EngineerJoyce

01-14-2005 09:51:32




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
Yep, you got it!
Use the non-woven (looks like felt fabric) and get the real thick stuff (6 to 8 ounces per square yard).

It's best to subgrade the drive. Just take the tractor and grader, and take off the topsoil about 4 to 6 inches. I keeps the rock from rolling away.

You may also see about renting a walk behind trencher and bury some black perforated tile about a foot deeper on grade to drain that low spot. Not too deep, or those clay soils will slow down the infiltration. If you backfill with clean rock (without the fines) that would also speed up the water removal.

It depends on the length you need to go on whether the walk behind trencher would work for you.

BTW - have you visited your local Conservation District and gotten them to evaluate your problem? free technical advice.
Ping if you have questions for me.

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Mitchissippi

01-14-2005 12:30:25




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to EngineerJoyce, 01-14-2005 09:51:32  
We spec out the fabric all the time here. Use crushed stone on top instead of a river rock if you can. We've had good luck they it.

Local NRCS should help you out.



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Kirk Grau

01-14-2005 10:05:44




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to EngineerJoyce, 01-14-2005 09:51:32  
Are you suggesting just burying a length of perforated piping to make kind of a "french drain"? The next lower spot on the property is ~700 feet away and needs to pass through the highest portion to get there.

Thanks,

Kirk



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EngineerJoyce

01-14-2005 10:18:28




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 10:05:44  
Like I said, you really need to visit your local NRCS office. They may be able to come out to your farm and give you some site specific suggestions.

$4000 to drain a hole with an outlet only 700 feet away?!? That's highway robbery!



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Eldon (WA)

01-14-2005 09:44:58




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:19:49  
I'd rent a backhoe and do the work myself....and have some fun at the same time.



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Kirk Grau

01-14-2005 09:57:55




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Eldon (WA), 01-14-2005 09:44:58  
I would probably build the drive myself, but drain installation seems like something that I would probably be time and money ahead by hiring somebody to do it.

Thanks,

Kirk



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JT

01-14-2005 12:13:50




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-14-2005 09:57:55  
Go to your local soil and water conservation office and get some ideas from them, that info is free. But you can put drainage tile in where you are going to make your drive, then trench it to the lowest spot you can. If you have a 9N, you might be able to make yourself a small water drainage ditch with a back blade. the soil and water conservation district might also have some equipment you can rent/borrow to get the job done.That would be the first place to stop.

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brtx

01-14-2005 16:05:19




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to JT, 01-14-2005 12:13:50  
time to stir the pot a little. i would not call any government agency.first thing you know they will be telling you what you can or cant do.close to the barn?lets get the epa involved here.id just lay down some crushed concrete or limestone and see what happens.not building a super highway here.my 2cents



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buickanddeere

01-14-2005 17:10:51




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to brtx, 01-14-2005 16:05:19  
Amen. I went by the book and contacted the local water authority about bridging a stream which is dry 4 months of the year. The plan was two parallel 15ftx6'dia reinforced concrete sewer tile runs using two tile each to get 30ft length. With a spillway in case ice blocked both tile runs. They refused saying the tile had to interlock to prevent leaks. I showed them the tile did fit watertight end to end as the same type are used to flow sewage in the city. Then she said it was the wrong type of interlocking tile. Then she said it wouldn't flow enough. I showed her the other six bridges within sight of my place. One belongs to the province and is only a 6'x6' square and it never floods or blocks up with ice. Another existing old culvert is a 5ft round across the road at one of the neighbours. Water rarely flows it 3/4 full during spring floods. Then she said we would have to spend about $10,000 to get it all engineered but no guarantee of approval. She said they no longer want to approve bridges or anything that may alter natural waterflow. She asked why not just drive though the creek. It's a clay/silt bottom and anything heavier than a 4 wheel ATV would sink when wet. Plus I told her I didn't want to stir up silt and affect the spawning beds down stream 2+ miles away. She asked how are the fields accessed now? The back one can be reached through a narrow Hydro right of way but no serious machinery could squeeze through.Both the middle and back field is accessible off the neighbour's who used to rent the property. He has his own bridge too. She suggested that I just drive over his land and crops to access my two fields. After a short pause I asked her what her neighbours would say if she drove across their yard to get into her garage. There was a long pause and a frosty reply that she would get right back to me then hung up. Now the local water authority cruises past every week or two in the dry season to check on any "illegal" bridge or watercourse "crossings" being built. Wished I had never called them at all and also resisted the desire to make my last comment. This year on a long weekend when the authority is on holidays. I'll have to whip in quick with a backhoe and trench a couple of feet deep and 12ft wide across the creek and up each bank. Then run a row of those 2'x2'x4' concrete blocks on the downstream side.The local concrete business casts them with off spec concrete.Backfilling the trench to the original level with drainage softball sized stones should finish the crime off...

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BobinKY

01-18-2005 10:25:47




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to buickanddeere, 01-14-2005 17:10:51  
Just a thought BuickandDeere. How about if you were to buy an old flatbed tractor trailer and take the wheels off. I heard about this from an old farmer in Illinois and he uses these things extensively. SInce talking to him, I have found more than one available in the Convenient Store magazines in the $175 to $250 price range. I am thinking seriously about putting this across my water crossing this summer. I can use the full 50 foot, but you could get a shorter trailer bed by buying a wrecked pup trailer and taking the sides and roof off. I think this is a neat idea. I can put this thing right on the ground without building peers and I should still have 6' to 7' of clearance between the bridge and the bottom of the creek. It will be a long time before the old steel in these trailers begins to deteriorated. Just a thought.

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brtx

01-15-2005 13:24:30




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to buickanddeere, 01-14-2005 17:10:51  
still think you should get a couple end dump loads of crushed concrete and spread it with your ford tractor using a back blade.you will have fun doing it and not be paying for some heavy equipment costs.you will be able to keep spreading it around where you need itand not have a lot of mud and ruts till that ground settlesand firms up. the way you are getting moisture up there any digging would replace your small lake into a mud hole.

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Kirk Grau

01-15-2005 14:00:11




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to brtx, 01-15-2005 13:24:30  
I am not really looking for a "Yes Man", but that is pretty much what I wanted to try. I just wanted to bounce it off the collective experience here to see if the geotex fabric would increase my chances of success without having to go to the expense of draining this low spot.

Alternatively, if I had an overwhelming response that indicated I was just throwing good money into a mud hole that was just going to keep swallowing gravel until I gave up and did it "right" I would have started setting money aside for the project this Spring.

Thanks to all who have taken time to reply. By all means keep the info coming, I appreciate it.

Kirk

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brtx

01-15-2005 17:47:57




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to Kirk Grau, 01-15-2005 14:00:11  
kirk, that rock will sink some but it will take time with light traffic.you have to keep in mind that as it gets built up the water will have to go somewhere. i dont think you would need a liner with that clay ground.just keep working ay with your tractor.if you can drag some topsoil to mix with the stone that will help also.it will mix with the stone and give you a great base to work with



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Lou

01-17-2005 13:02:47




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 Re: OT - Making a gravel drive through mud bowl, w in reply to brtx, 01-15-2005 17:47:57  

FABRICK



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