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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT: Squeezable Propane?

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Old Dumbie!

01-07-2005 18:43:49




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Sorry fellas for the OT post, but I just can't seem to figure this one out. Today, we had our 500 gallon propane tank filled. The tank gauge read about 10% remaining, before the truck came. After being filled, the gauge reads 80%...and the meter ticket is for 500.2 gallons! Can you really squeeze that amount of propane into a tank without it looking like a weather balloon ready to lift off?
This is the same tank we've had for years, and it has never held anywhere near that amount before. Does cold weather effect the density of propane to that extent?

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SJ

01-08-2005 12:46:18




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
For whatever its worth my tanks only read 80% when filled and my bill is rated at gallons,which is at 1.84 right now in upstate New York.

Not a Physics Major,,lol



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BobInMN

01-08-2005 11:52:01




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
It would be interesting to know where he delivered fuel just before you and be able to look at their ticket. Let"s say he delivered 150 gallons and forgot to reset the meter. Then delivered 350 gallons to you. Might be worth checking into.



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John M

01-08-2005 09:38:06




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
I didnt know propane was measured in gallons,I thought it was pounds.When we get big tank for our forklifts filled it is on the ticket in pds.



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greenbeanman

01-09-2005 08:25:59




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to John M, 01-08-2005 09:38:06  
The containers that are normally called bottles are typically filled in pounds while larger tanks are filled in gallons.

I don't know where the fine line crosses.



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JC(WI)

01-08-2005 09:03:39




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
The propane company probably had some rookie driving and he forgot to reset the meter. But if its hand written, it might be that he errored in writing a 5 instead of a 3 or a 4. Lets see 10% = 50 gallons, 80% fill = 20% not in tank or another 100 gallons so that is 150 gallons from 500 = app. 350 gallons delivered.
Either way, just call up the company and tell them that you got 500.2 gallons delivered into a 500 gallon tank. If I remember right, the slip will have a reading percentage of tank at beginning of fill and should say what percentage it was at finish. plus the name of the driver. It also should say what the meter read at beginning and ended at too. Now call them and tell them there has been an error on their part and would appreciate it if they would reduce the price of your bill by a couple hundred gallons.;-) Then see what they say.

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greenbeanman

01-08-2005 07:19:20




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
I hauled LPG for 7 years as an off farm winter job. I can assure you that you cannot put 500 gallons of LP in a 500 gallon tank when there is already some in there.

I agree with a number of the others. Either the meter wasn't cleared before your tank was filled, or it has failed. I doubt that there is any willful malicous intent to overbill. That would simply be too blatant.

Are you sure that isn't dollars rather than gallons? I expect you have been seeing tickets long enough to know the difference.

Just inform the dealer so that he can take the truck out of service until the meter can be correct. I'm sure that he will adjust your bill. When the meter is corrected the percentage of error will be determined and your bill can be adjusted by that amount.

Many gauges have a magnetic dial and have an inherent error, though fairly accurate. But 500 in a 500, nope.

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MarkB_MI

01-08-2005 06:15:42




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
Sounds like the meter on the truck wasn't reset before you were filled. I'd call the supplier up and ask what's up. If you don't like the answer, file a complaint with the appropriate authorities.



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BobMo

01-08-2005 06:07:19




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
I think it was an honest error. As the owner of this tank you should know what you have been buying in the past and that a tank is generally not filled beyond 80%. The meter on the truck probably wasn't reset to "0" or something like that. Just take the ticket to the company and have it corrected as I doubt there was malicious intent. The only place that would happen is NY, NJ, or PA. If you are in one of those places pay it and keep your mouth shut....

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TomTX

01-08-2005 05:33:55




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
You got taken. Plain and simple. Even if your guage is broken, and the tank was empty, you only got 400 gallons. The dealer is dishonest. Turn him in to authorities. Put a stop payment on your check right now.



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Dug

01-08-2005 17:46:48




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to TomTX, 01-08-2005 05:33:55  
Lighten up, TomTX. All things considered, it was probably an honest mistake. Have a little faith in your fellow man and give him a chance. Seems easy enough to get to the bottom of this. IMHO!

Dug



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big jt

01-07-2005 22:45:46




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
One possibility is that your guage is stuck. Last winter I had a valve start leaking on the house tank. No way to fix unless the tank was empty. Delivery guy and I agreed that the thing to do was run the tank near empty in the spring. Guage got down to 15% and stayed there for a couple of weeks. Lo and behold One Sunday night the house got kinda cold. Went out to the tank the next morn and tapped the guage, dropped to 0%.


HOWEVER if the WC on the tag on your tank reads 500 gal you should still not be able to hold 500 gal. I would either take this issue up with the supplier or turn in to the legal athority that moniters such things in your state. IA it is the Department of Ag and Land Stewardship (IDALS). Easy way to find out who to contact is all gas pumps and scales that are used for trade need to be inspected. They will have a sticker that will list the agency that takes care of this.

HTH

jt

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xpropaneguy

01-07-2005 21:27:38




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
A 500 gallon propane tank with 10% filled to 80% should have a bill for 350 gallons. Each 10% is 50 gallons. The tank should never be filled above 85%.



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MT Pockets

01-07-2005 22:47:45




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to xpropaneguy, 01-07-2005 21:27:38  
Yes, there is a difference in the density of propane. The colder it is the more dense it is. BUT the metering device on the delivery truck has a temperature compensator in it. The compensator is calibrated at 70 degrees fahrenheit.[I think it's 70] That way you don't get cheated on a hot day, and the dealer doesn't get cheated on a cold day. The meter also has a device in it to prevent vapor from registering through the meter, but I have seen thus fail a time or two. But if you do in fact have a 500 gallon tank, and they gave you a ticket stamped 500 gallons, something is definitely wrong. Let us know what they say. MT Pockets, another expropaneguy.

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NEsota

01-07-2005 21:11:30




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
Please post back on this when it is resolved. There may be some wiggle room because of calculations due to temperature.



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john in la

01-07-2005 21:36:52




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to NEsota, 01-07-2005 21:11:30  
While there may be some wiggle room for temperature it will not be that much. Besides wholesalers are usually the only ones that buy fuel on a net gallon basis. Consumers usually buy fuel on a gross gallon basis and temperature does not affect it.

He had 10% in a 500 gal tank. That is 50 gallons. He now has 80% or 400 gallons. So he got 350 gallons and paid for 500 gallons. It would take a VERY cold product to make 350 gross gallons work out to 500 net gallons.

He either does not know his tank size or he was taken. I would call the company and ask about it then I would call the state weight and standards as they will pull the company records to find out if others have been taken in the same way.

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greenbeanman

01-08-2005 06:57:52




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to john in la, 01-07-2005 21:36:52  
Delivery truck meters have a temperature compensator that adjusts the meter as the temperatures fluctuate.



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john in la

01-08-2005 08:46:47




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to greenbeanman, 01-08-2005 06:57:52  
That is most likely true for your northern trucks. Here in the south it is not. Our delivery truck just got a temperature compensating meter a year or two ago. In the north it pays to install the meter because they would always be giving product away but down here it usually works the other way. We pay for more than we really got unless it is temperature corrected.

It would be very easy to tell if the meter was not set to zero if we knew what the delivery before him was.
If the meter is bad the thing that comes to mind is every deliver ticket since the last meter calibration can now come into question. While the meter may have broke on his turn at least every delivery after that is wrong.

While the driver was most likely not paying attention to the amount and just printed what the meter said he really should have caught this. All fuel is figured on a basis of 60 deg. It expands (hot) and contracts (cold) as the temperature moves but not by very much. On 350 gross gallons we are probably talking 50 gals at most and more like 25. If he had got a bill for 375 gallons he would have just thought the driver over filled it a little and never said anything.

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leland

01-07-2005 21:00:29




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
Call the dept of weights and measures 1st thing in the moring and turn them in they know that this is not right.



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Jeff oliver

01-07-2005 20:05:32




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
yep I would call them and see what they say cause something is really wrong with that picture.Sounds like the driver somehow made a mistake or was trying to shaft you or the company is not on the up and up



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marlowe

01-07-2005 19:19:07




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
your the one that got squeezed . if you had 10% and filled to 80% you only got 70% of lp you got TAKEN a 500 gal. tank will not hold 500 gal



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RusselAZ

01-07-2005 18:52:54




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 Re: OT: Squeezable Propane? in reply to Old Dumbie!, 01-07-2005 18:43:49  
A 500 gallon tank at 80% is 425 gallons. The driver of the truck should have known there is something wrong. You better call the dealer and report it.



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