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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best?

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Jess G. Enns

01-01-2005 08:02:51




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What advantages and disadvantages does propane bring to a hobby farmer? What would you buy? Is collectability an issue?

Thank you




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Kansas

01-01-2005 18:51:06




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
Propane is a pain in the bu**. Having said that, I own one. Its just what you get used to I guess. I don't think I'd trade my 4020LP for nothing!! I can't tell you about using more or less fuel, or more or less horse power, I never really paid much attention to it. I bought mine 10 years ago, along with a nurse tank (which doesn't amout to anthing more that a seperate tank for the tractor which is on wheels). Mine will start anytime...cold or warm. I've never had a problem like I've heard on here in cold weather. This is the first tractor I"ve ever been around on propane....its kind of scary fueling it...the guy I bought it from told me to vent the vapor off as you fuel it, which I do, and its kind of scary, big black flies will come out of no where and be on the tractor (due to the smell). I have a big pair of pliers to turn the fitting when the tank is full, and I ALWAYS wear a pair of welding gloves when I'd fueling it. I'd sure buy another one anytime. I've got a D17 Allis and I know where a D17 propane is thats basically junked, and I've been debating about buying it and chaninging mine over....the only thing thats stopping me is that mine is so perfect that I don't want to change it. You need to find some one thats got a propane tractor and go see them and see what they say...I think its like an individual thing. Good Luck with what ever you do.

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Jerry/MT

01-01-2005 18:14:57




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
When I was working my way through college, I was an equipment repairman at US Steel-Gary Works and 95% of our I/C engines were propane powered. The only problem we had regarding propane fuel was that we used local tap water, which was very hard, in the cooling system and the gas regulators were "heated" with coolant. The coolant passages would plug up and then the regulators would freeze the engines would run ratty (not unlike carb icing on a gasoline fueled engine). Even on a 110 degree day, they'd be covered with frost! The only other problem we had was that the mechanical float gauges in the tanks would crap and and guys would run them out of fuel. They produced more horspower because the octane rating was higher and we could run with higher compression ratios. They ran clean and didn't require oil changes as frequently. Even the plugs stayed clean. I saw a lot of propane engines torn down and they were soooo much cleaner than a similar gas engine you wouldn't believe it. I think the biggest problem with propane fuel is dealing with fuel storage and refueling on an average farm. Liquid fuels are easier to store and handle and they don't freeze your skin if you get careless with them.

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KyleSD

01-01-2005 18:14:23




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
We have had a LP farmall M for quite a few years and never had a problem with it...Ours has more power then a gas M can run longer on a tank of fuel,runs cleaner i think its just all around better...For the small time hobby guy...Heck why not?? you have a good work tractor and a collector all at the same time...I wouldnt go any other way...



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thurlow

01-01-2005 17:11:35




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
Never owned one myself, but it was a popular thing to do in the '50s in my community. Numerous neighbors made the change....mostly on small Fords....8ns, Jubilees, 6-800s, etc. Carried 'em down to the local welder, who put a bracket on the front to hold a hundred lb. tank. Never saw a one that would crank worth a da*m (obviously, this could have been because they weren't set up correctly).....it was a passing fad; within 8-10 years, they were all gone.

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paul

01-01-2005 14:11:05




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
A few thoughts in addition to below, propane is a rare thing, so unless _you_ are familiar with it, you won't find a lot of help down at the corner. I believe an engine on propane delivers less hp than the same engine on gasoline?

Around here they were very rare (not valuable, just rare), but those of 50-60 hp were popular for running the pto powered batch corn driers. Could run the tractor & drier from the same LP tank.

--->Paul

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CLW

01-01-2005 15:36:31




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to paul, 01-01-2005 14:11:05  
LPG has more HP, at least on Deere's. 630= LP 50.3, gas 48.7. 730= LP 59.6, gas 59.1 and diesel 58.8. If you can hook a water hose to a water faucet and turn the water on you can fill a LP tractor. CLW



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paul

01-01-2005 18:23:27




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to CLW, 01-01-2005 15:36:31  
Seems I always heard more LP used than gasoline anyhow?

I agree any idiot can operate a garden hose or a propane fill. The water spill will be a little less specatacular to deal with.

My comment was not about filling the tractor, tho you need the LP tank, valve, & dipper hose which is all extra expense.

My thoughts were on keeping the tractor running. All need repair & maintenence from time to time. I have to look harder or pay more to find someone who can work on a magneto around here, compared to a distributor. Likewise gasoline vs LP - I either need to learn a whole new system myself, or be willing to pay more to have an LP tractor repaired.

It's just different than the average, and not everyone will be good at troubleshooting them. The price of being different.

--->Paul

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CLW

01-02-2005 11:54:35




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to paul, 01-01-2005 18:23:27  
Paul, I understand what you are saying. You are correct. You need a tank and hose to fill it. (same as a gas) If you really are going to use the tractor a lot you need a fuel tank on the land you work. We had a LP tank in a two wheel trailer that we pulled from one farm to another to fill the tractor.(five farms) It was a lot easier than carrying 12 five gallon cans to fill the two tractors had they been gas.(3 cans per tractor morning and same for afternoon). You have to remember most farmers had 50's models 1/2 ton short bed pickups and didn't have electric pumps to pump fuel to tractor. Also they couldn't leave a large (55 gal) tank in the truck as they had to have the truck for other things. LP parts are not hard to get from either Deere or your local LP supplier once you learn which place to go for what part. Anything different is a little scary until you do it once. Growing up I saw a lot more tractors burnt that were being filled with a 5 gal. can of gas being poured into the tank over hot plugs and manifold than LP's. Come to think of it the only LPG tractors I saw burnt were both in a (same) barn fire. In Texas in the mid 50's there were about a 50/50 split between gas and LP. LP was cheeper and it did take more LP gallons than gas to do the same amount of work. But cost wise (then, not today) it was cheep enough that MANY farmers changed there gas tractors to LP. I guess what sets me off is that I have seen many replys to a LPG tractor and there "dangers" from people that have NEVER been around one. I drove both and felt safe around both. Have a 630LP now. There are safety rules for both and if you follow them you will be OK.
CLW

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Bob

01-01-2005 17:06:40




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to CLW, 01-01-2005 15:36:31  
Tractors designed for LP generally run higher compression, and more spark advance, as propane is higher octane than gasoline. That would explain the added horsepower. Fuel use in gallons per hour will be up with the propane, though.



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greenbeanman in Kansas

01-01-2005 11:37:12




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
Propane con: As stated, fueling can be a hassle if not set up with a nurse tank and fill hose.

Dangerous if you are not a safety conscious person.

Some models are harder to start on propane, however when properly tuned shouldn't start with great difficulty.

Takes a little learning to know about liquid/vapor valves and when to use each.

Fuel under pressure so seals in fuel lines must be kept in order---most last years without problems.

Propane pro: Longer engine life.

No dried out carburator gaskets as with gasoline, so when the engine starts it does not sputter and die.

Nurse tank and hose so you can fill bottles.

Propane is in a sealed container so vapors don't leak out of the tank.

Fuel does not get old as gasoline does.
----- ----
Since I've been around LPG tractors for decades if I had a choice I'd opt for the LPG istead of gasoline.

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Bob

01-01-2005 08:54:24




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jess G. Enns, 01-01-2005 08:02:51  
Propane is good for long engine life, but a pain to deal with to refill the tractor, unless you have the proper setup for filling.

Parts for some of the propane mechanism MAY be getting hard to find.



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Ray

01-01-2005 11:52:27




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Bob, 01-01-2005 08:54:24  
Propane engines wear out a lot faster,no lubrication in the propane,they will be a lot cleaner inside though.



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Roger H

01-02-2005 12:27:08




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Ray, 01-01-2005 11:52:27  
Ray, That comment proves you dont know s**t about LP engines.



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JoeMN

01-01-2005 14:41:45




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Ray, 01-01-2005 11:52:27  
Ray, I don't think the facts support your conclusions. Propane engines usually outlast gas and diesel engines under similar usage, and have longer intervals between required maintenance services. For example,the MM M5 manuals list oil change intervals of 100 hrs diesel, 200hrs gasoline,and 300 hrs propane. Propane is the cleanest of the 3 fuels. Gasoline does not lubricate your engine. While lead formulations provided some protection for valves and seats,I have seen no evidence that it compensated for the other wear associated with combustion of gasoline.

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Ray

01-01-2005 20:00:03




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to JoeMN, 01-01-2005 14:41:45  
A propane tractor will run around 3000 hours and need an overhaul,the engine parts will look like new,pistons,bearings etc,but will have a lot more
wear than a gas engine especially the piston ring
grooves.A comparable gas engine will run closer
to 5000 hours if maintained.I've worked on both
for 30 years in the ag bussiness.A friend of mine
converted a new chevy truck with a 350 engine to
propane because he was told it would last longer to,at 30000 miles it needed an overhaul,smoked
very bad.

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JoeMN

01-02-2005 11:34:40




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Ray, 01-01-2005 20:00:03  
Long life for propane fueled engines in oil fields, irrigation, truck refer units, agriculture has been proven over decades. Refer units would often run 10,000 to 20,00 hrs between overhauls. These are facts,easily discovered through the most elementary research. Your friends anecdotal experience of a botched chevy pickup conversion adds nothing to the body of knowledge of propane use in engines.

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Van in AR

01-02-2005 04:12:23




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Ray, 01-01-2005 20:00:03  
I disagree that propane engines will need a overhaul before a gasoline engine. The reason propane engines last longer is because of lower carbon buildup in the engine, LP is a cleaner fuel, ie, less abrasive carbon, less wear.
Van



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Jon H

01-01-2005 23:45:49




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Ray, 01-01-2005 20:00:03  
Ray,If you saw more wear on a propane engine,especially in the ring grooves,it has to be a poorly done conversion leaking dirt into the intake air. My personal experience is with an Oliver tractor I repowered with a propane burning chevy V8.After 20 years and over 6000 hrs of farming with it,I had to replace a head gasket.With the head removed,I checked the cylinders for wear. I could still see hone marks at the top of the cylinders,no wear at all with all those hours.This tractor has a very good dual element dry air filter.
This has proven a line from a propane conversion manual I have. " If the air cleaner is doing it's job, the rings in a propane engine will finally die from metal fatigue long before they wear out". Not long ago I read a report of propane powered forklift engines still running good with over 20,000 hrs.

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Jon H

01-01-2005 15:58:32




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to JoeMN, 01-01-2005 14:41:45  
Correct Joe. propane goes into the engine as a dry gas vapor,so there is nothing to wash the lubricant off the cylinder walls on a cold start like you have with gasoline fuel,so cold start wear and oil contamination is much less. Another plus for propane power is that the exhaust fumes are much less nasty if you need to operate the engine inside a building. This is why propane is such a popular fuel for a forklift

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Ray

01-01-2005 20:04:05




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jon H, 01-01-2005 15:58:32  
Propane has been banned in a lot of inside areas
because of noxious fumes,most are going to
electric.



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Bob

01-01-2005 12:08:48




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Ray, 01-01-2005 11:52:27  
With hardened valve seats, there should be no problem from the propane, and bearing and cylinder life should be longer with the propane.



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Jon H

01-01-2005 13:05:04




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Bob, 01-01-2005 12:08:48  
Just to add that a propane engine will not suffer from the spark plug fouling many older engines have when run on modern lead free gasoline.



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steveormary

01-01-2005 20:56:09




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 Re: Propane vs. Gasoline Engine whats best? in reply to Jon H, 01-01-2005 13:05:04  
25 years ago I would have bought a propane powerd tractor and even today if I was still farming. This being based on my experience operating a propane powered MM U one summer.But now diesel rules.



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