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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T

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Allan in NE

11-17-2004 18:29:53




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Hi ya Guys,

Trying to explain to a young feller on another fourm that when timing a gas engine with a timing light, it is far better to trigger the light from the coil wire instead of the number 1 plug wire.

The poor lad just 'taint gettin' it.

Ever try to explain this to someone? Geeeeze! I got a headache! Had to stop and come back over here with my tractor guys! :>)

Allan




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wdTom

11-19-2004 18:17:27




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Never thought about using the coil wire. Will have to try it. I have used the cylinder that is half way through the firing order on my 6 cylinder. It is easier to get to.



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Tim in NB

11-18-2004 15:20:46




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Don't forget an International gas engine. You time it using number 8 plug wire



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TP from Central PA

11-18-2004 11:42:23




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
I have tried both over the years and I never felt you got the right readings off the coil wire. I have had alot of ASE Master Tech teachers over the years and none of them every used it, and besides all the books I"ve ever seen explain to use the #1 cylinder with the light pickup as close to the plug as you can get it to time the ignition system. It makes sense to me because of where you want the spark in relation to piston placement(Don"t think the coil would be that accurate when you think about it)

Only reason some of you think it is better because it makes it easier to see..... ...Put a mark on TDC with a paint pen along with the farthest advanced and retarded positions and you"ll be amazed at how easy you can see what your doing.

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MarkB_MI

11-19-2004 05:38:39




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to TP from Central PA, 11-18-2004 11:42:23  
Are you saying that it won't be accurate off the coil wire because of the time delay between the plug wire and the coil wire? The impulse travels down the plug wire at the speed of light! That's close enough for me.



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TP from Central PA

11-19-2004 10:32:42




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to MarkB_MI, 11-19-2004 05:38:39  
That is what I have read and was always told..... ....You guys can say what you want, but I never heard of any tech manuals or auto experts that say to use the coil wire, until I see some hard proof on why using the coil wire is better, I'll continue to use the #1 cylinder with my light lead as close to the plug as you can get it.



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JHesler

11-18-2004 10:52:47




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Im not gettin it either. What difference does it make? The pickup senses current and current is the same on the plug wire as it is on the coil wire. The only thing I see happening when you use the coil wire is the possibility of a dimmer flash or no flash because the light charge circuit has 4, 6 or 8 times less oppportunity to regenerate the energy required to flash the bulb.



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Sid

11-17-2004 19:23:01




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
I ain't gettin it either when your headache clears up perhaps you can come back and explain.



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Why?

11-17-2004 19:10:45




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Why?
Never heard of that.



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Gordon in IN

11-17-2004 19:08:46




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Using the coil wire sure works well on my AC WC and AC WD. The flywheel has two timing marks for TDC (180 degrees apart) and two for the advanced setting (180 degrees apart). Since it is a 4 cyl and a 4 stroke engine, using the coil wire gives two impulses per rev. to trigger the timing light. This is 4 times the impulses that using the #1 spark plug wire would give. This makes it much easier to see the timing mark. On these engines any one of four the spark plug wires can be used to set the final ignition timing. Using the coil wire gives four times the number of impulses and is much easier to see.

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RJ-AZ

11-17-2004 18:49:30




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Timing from the coil wire will give you 4,6 or 8 pulses per revolution. To truly time an engine as far as to initial, mechanical and vacuum advance you almost have to time off of No.1 cylinder. For base reference on a tractor I guess you can time from the coil wire seeing as how they rev lower and have no advance.



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MarkB_MI

11-17-2004 19:18:13




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to RJ-AZ, 11-17-2004 18:49:30  
RJ,

You'll only get 8 pulses per revolution on a 16 cylinder engine. Remember, the distributor turns at only half the speed of the crank.

I see Allan's point, though I've never tried it myself. Using the coil wire, you'll get twice as many flashes as with the plug wire. That's a big deal if you're outside or in a brightly lit shop. Sure, you'll get extra flashes, but they'll be 90 degrees off (on a V8), it's pretty hard to get that far off and still have the engine running. With a six, the flashes will be 120 degrees off, and 180 degrees off with a four-banger.

For nostalgia's sake, I guess I'll have to break out the timing light and give it a try. My Ford tractor is the only thing here that still has a distributor!

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Allan in NE

11-17-2004 19:25:19




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to MarkB_MI, 11-17-2004 19:18:13  
Atta Boy Mark,

Shucks, I thought everyone knew that old trick. Least us old guys anyway. :>)

Allan



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Allan in NE

11-17-2004 19:17:52




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to RJ-AZ, 11-17-2004 18:49:30  
RJ,

It doesn't matter if it would happen to throw 1000 pulses. You don't care.

All that will show at the pointer is the #1 cylinder and the opposing "off" cylinder (which one depends on the total number of cylinders) in the firing order when it fires. So, you can actually time the engine from either cylinder or both, it just doesn't matter.

You can just ignore the rest because they are nowhere near the pointer anyway and show up staggered elsewhere around the balancer.

Try it and you'll see what I mean. It is just an easy way to get a nice bright, steady light instead of that psychotic 'blinking' thing.

Have a good one,

Allan

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Mitchissippi

11-18-2004 12:03:16




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 That Rat Thar . . . in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 19:17:52  
should've been all you needed to say, but it's hard to argue with some folks when all they bring to the table is book sence.



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Mike (WA)

11-18-2004 08:17:37




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 19:17:52  
I rather enjoy the psychotic blinking light- recaptures the nostalgia of dances in the '60's, with those cool strobe lites. Maybe they still use 'em, I don't know- the music is so bad now I haven't been to a dance in years. It's tough to get old.



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RJ-AZ

11-18-2004 04:11:44




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 19:17:52  
Bing - now I got it! I will have to try it out on my 65' Suburban.



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old

11-17-2004 18:41:20




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:29:53  
Thats one have have never heard of before. But I also never use a timing light, I do it by ear and it works well for me. I may have to get a lite in a few years since the old ears are going lol



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Allan in NE

11-17-2004 18:45:27




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to old, 11-17-2004 18:41:20  
Boy!

Me too! In fact, everything I got is going. LOL



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txblu

11-18-2004 05:39:32




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:45:27  
Me 3. CCW till she farts, CW till she coughs, set her in the middle, lock er down and head for the frige.

Mark



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old

11-17-2004 19:12:43




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 Re: Groan, Stress! Slightly O/T in reply to Allan in NE, 11-17-2004 18:45:27  
I'd hate to compare, any more if I wake up in the morning and I'm not in pain I'd be afraid to get out of bed. LOL



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