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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Why is GPS off?

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Farmer in the D

11-07-2004 08:35:53




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Ed, Leland or anyone else,
I believe GPS can be off depending on the type. Correct me if I am wrong, but the bottom line is some earlier units that reference on three points have no idea which side of the pinpoint you are on. Therefore once they reference on the third point, it triangulates and creates a mirror image of the points. Because it does so using a calculated circle, you have two possible locations. In short, put three dots on a paper in the shape of a triangle. From those dots draw a circle large enough to overlap the other two. Your triangulation now shows two possible locations. The older three point GPS do not how to distinguish between which locations. I believe the newer units don't reference until they see a fourth satellite so drawing a fourth circle clears the confusion for the location. I have referenced as many as 7 satellites at one time. I have no way of knowing how many of those the unit used for its location though. The navigators found in many vehicles today are more advanced and can pinpoint locations right down to a street for left and right turns. The location equipment like earlier OnstarŪ or LojackŪ programming may not have to be that advanced. If you get 10 feet from the location to find the vehicle, well, enough said. I have used mine for fishing on larger bodies of water and it seems to pinpoint accurate enough to find a shelf or a rock formation. If anyone knows more, chime in I will see if I can find my printed data on this to post.

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Wi Craig

11-09-2004 16:10:14




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 Re: Why is GPS off? in reply to Farmer in the Dells (WI), 11-07-2004 08:35:53  
I don't know if this means anything to you but my elevation was off when I purchased mine. Went to Lake Michigan and set the elevation. Good luck.
Craig



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Farmer in the Dells (WI)

11-07-2004 15:35:56




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 Re: Found this data in reply to Farmer in the Dells (WI), 11-07-2004 08:35:53  
GPS: The Basics

Introduction
The Global Position System (GPS) is a system for identifying three-dimensional position (horizontal coordinates and elevation), velocity, and time anywhere on earth. With a structural framework consisting of a satellite network and ground stations to track and coordinate the movement of these satellites, it provides anyone with a GPS receiver the ability to locate their position with accuracies ranging up to the centimeter level, at any time and in any weather. The system has become a fundamental piece in positioning and navigation technology, used in everything from transportation logistics and in-car navigation systems to ground surveying, flight navigation, and even sport fishing. This section will introduce the basic components of the system and provide a jumping off point to more detailed information on GPS and its uses.

Fundamental Positioning Methodology
The system is based on a fundamental positioning procedure known as resection (often mislabeled triangulation), where knowing the distance from an unknown location to a certain number of known locations allows the determination of the unknown position's coordinates. In the GPS system, the 24 satellites orbiting the earth provide the known locations, and the unknown location is the position of the user with a GPS receiver.

In determining a three-dimensional location on the surface of the earth, four known locations are theoretically required. The process works as follows: from the unknown location, we determine the distance to the first known location (satellite one). That measured distance thus establishes that the unknown point must lie somewhere on the surface of a sphere (with radius equal to the distance we determined) centered on satellite one. We next determine the distance to a second satellite, which gives us a second sphere. The intersection of the two spheres is a circle, so we know the unknown point lies somewhere on this circle. Then we determine the distance to a third satellite. The intersection of the resulting third sphere with the previous circle results in only two possible locations for our unknown point. A measurement to a fourth satellite would tell which of the two positions is correct; often, however, one of the positions is obviously wrong (e.g., in the wrong country or in space) so can be rejected without further measurement. We will see later however that a fourth measurement is needed for accurate positioning.

There is more info including graphics at the link

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buickanddeere

11-07-2004 13:51:12




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 Re: Why is GPS off? in reply to Farmer in the Dells (WI), 11-07-2004 08:35:53  
Three satellites will give position and four or more will calculate your elevation as well. For surveying or controlling equipment travel there is a 1st and 2nd generation correction system. A known way point is found and a correcting signal is broadcast to the mobile GPS unit to correct the error. If memeory serves the 1st generation system is good for +/- four inches. There was an article in the Deere publication "Furrow" this year that explained GPS rather well. Makes it tough to do surveys as maps often show a straight road while you are standing on the curve caused by a surveyors error 100-200+ years ago. The random error was cut from 100ft to I think 30 ft or so?

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Jerry/MT

11-07-2004 13:12:22




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 Re: Why is GPS off? in reply to Farmer in the Dells (WI), 11-07-2004 08:35:53  
I am certainly no expert on GPS, but I thought the three point triangulation just gave you a point on the earths's surface. If the software is such that you use multiple satelites in groups of three, than each triangulation may give you a slightly different answer so that could cause an error. But as I said, I'm no expert in the details of the GPS calculations.



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jhill

11-07-2004 11:20:26




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 Re: Why is GPS off? in reply to Farmer in the Dells (WI), 11-07-2004 08:35:53  
The government mandated that early civilian units be no more accurate than I think it was 100 ft. This was for military security. This changed a couple years ago. Most were nuch more accurate however.



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Harley

11-07-2004 08:52:00




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 Re: Why is GPS off? in reply to Farmer in the Dells (WI), 11-07-2004 08:35:53  
Yesterday I went out with a little hand held Geko brand and located the corners of out prooperty for future fencing referencing, and at the second point, 1/4 mile from my start point, was within a foot of where I ultimately found a buried marker post and another marker on a tree. Was totally astounded and thrilled. Course just getting this thing turned on and operating almost always puts me in a state of euphoria. I'm old and as far as navigation goes, I always thought you had to look at the stars and sound a depth to figure it out. Later, Harley

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Rod in S.F. Ontario, Cana

11-08-2004 13:55:22




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 GPS quirks in reply to Harley, 11-07-2004 08:52:00  
My Garmin Etrex is often accurate to within 30' if the stored signal is not too old.

The odd thing is that from fall to spring I have noticed my dock moves about 650 feet out into the lake. Maybe the satelites shift a bit. Who knows?

It's still a neat toy, and a pilot friend told me that many airline pilots carry them in their pockets now, after someone got in to a safe landing in England after an electrical failure wiped out all of the liner's navigation instruments except the pocket GPS he had along.

I don't think I would trust my Garmin for altitude: on Route 81 I've read 400' higher at the bottom of a large hill than at the top.

Oh yes, and my friend's home in Reading, PA, is 1/2 mile from its Lat and Long on the map. Burke's County was surveyed in the mid 1600's, though, and that might account for the error.

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and a prair

11-07-2004 08:57:03




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 Re: Why is GPS off? in reply to Harley, 11-07-2004 08:52:00  
no text



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