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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Roosa-Master Gave it Up?

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txblu

08-08-2004 08:17:06




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Just bought this Ford 2000 3 cyl Diesel. Had 2200 hrs on the proofmeter but looking at the steering linkage and foot pedals says that the engine hourmeter had rolled at least once. Looking at the oil pan seal and exhaust manifold bolt keepers told me that someone had been into the engine.

Doing some mowing and everything is fine. Purring along at pto speed (1600) and all of a sudden the engine starts to miss, then it surged above set pto. Did this a few times and I immediately headed for the house doing the same as we went.

Got to the shop and killed it. Checked fuel in tank > 1/4. Had put fuel filter in 10 or so hours ago. Checked fuel at pump inlet....had it.

Guess I have to do a pump overhaul. Will mess around some more this morning to try and see what else I can learn; like loosen the plate on the side of the pump and crack the injector nuts and see if there is fuel when I crank. I'll even get out my new shop manual recently purchased here, and hit the "troubleshooting" section.

What makes me think it is the pump is the surging. If it was fuel starved, and saw a fresh batch before it died (from lack thereof) I would think it would return to governor set rpm's, not surge 200-300 above.

Opinions, experiences, requested.

Thanks,

Mark

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Rod F.

08-08-2004 18:02:50




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
Hope all works out well for you, but that still sounds strange to me. In my exp. if the filter is bled after a filter change (don't crack the bleeder on the pump), they will start, and there will never be a problem. If there is any air in the line, then they must be fully bled. Either starts and goes fine till next time, or doesn't go at all. There is no gettin to the field. I have had air leaks though, and notice this more at idle. Will surge up to about 1000 rmp for a second, then back down, once a minute or so. Could be a line, or sometimes just the gasket on the filter. Hope it's not your problem, but I would watch close on that metering valve.... or other internal problems. FYI that pump should be a CAV Lucas model DPA. Take care.

Rod

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txblu

08-09-2004 05:41:25




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Rod F., 08-08-2004 18:02:50  
Did as I said and went to the field for 2 hrs yesterday afternoon, including loading the engine pulling up hills in high gear. Not a problem. Apparently was a lot of air I didn't get out when I first installed the filter. Next time I'll spend more time bleeding.

And yes it is probably a CVA.

Thanks,

Mark



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txblu epitaph..done deal

08-08-2004 12:42:40




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
Ok you guys, Chris and hayman and Bob. You guys get the gold star. Thanks to the rest of you and glad it wasn't a big problem.

Got the manual out and it said air also. Went thru the procedure completely of rebleeding the entire system. Lots of bubbles between the filter and pump. Must have drained a gallon of fluid thru it B4 it cleared up. Cracked the injector nuts, cranked till I saw fuel, locked her down and whammo!!!!! !!!. Did a re tweak of the injectors just to make sure that every one was playing ball, rolled the battery back into position and closed the hood.

Headin back to the field by wanted to share my regards first.

As usual, my deepest regards to the "Big dogs" that earned the right to get off the porch. Grin.
Saved me a crisp $500 and a couple of weeks down time when you don't need it..... when do you ever need it..... .when you're tired?????
Thanks,

Mark

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New-Gen

08-08-2004 12:31:53




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
A word of caution: If you use the low sulphur fuel from filling stations, be sure to use a sulphur substitute. That fuel doesn't have the lubricity needed for the pump.
I learned this firsthand when I used it on my 4020 JD. I thought the newly rebuilt Stanadyne had messed up, the guys at the rebuild shop told me to try some additive before I pulled the pump off. Put a quart, enough to treat 150 gallons in 15 gallons of fuel, by the time I got it out of the toolshed it was running like a champ.

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txblu

08-08-2004 12:34:35




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to New-Gen, 08-08-2004 12:31:53  
I put MMM and ATF in all fillups. Kick back to the OTR Rock bucket days.

And my delivery ticket said that my dyed farm fuel was hi sulphur (what ever that means).

Thanks,

Mark



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New-Gen

08-08-2004 13:42:50




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 12:34:35  
I don't know what they mean by that either, but I do know I never had any problem as long as I used the red fuel in the tractors--just that one time I got ina pinch and had to fill my transfer tank at the truckstop.



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Burrhead

08-08-2004 18:31:03




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to New-Gen, 08-08-2004 13:42:50  
I don't know what the difference is either but my 7.3 dorf runs cooler and pulls out better on red fuel. On low sulphur it pulls out weak down nearly to where a GM diesel lives.

I put a quart of 50 cent ATF from the Dollar Store in each tank on my pickup at ever fill up in town. On my 150 gal bed tank I put 1 gallon of ATF.

Don't know if it helps but I feel easier about it and have'nt ever had the pump or injectors rebuilt on nearly 400,000 miles. I do add Lucas Fuel Conditioner as per directions about every 3-4 tanks.

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Leland

08-08-2004 20:27:43




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Burrhead, 08-08-2004 18:31:03  
ATF is agreat fuel system cleaner, once drove a gmc with a b.c 350 cumm. And the thing had 25000 miles and 4000 hrs of idle time. ran like crap used 5gals of trans fluid per tank for a week went from running 48 at top speed to 70 . so I add this stuff to any diesel I now have. And I also fill new fliters with atf cleans pump good



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txblu

08-09-2004 05:43:26




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Leland, 08-08-2004 20:27:43  
10-4



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Old Ford Mechanic

08-08-2004 09:36:23




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
Mark,Are you sure that 3 cylinder engine has a roosa master pump? And not a simms or a cva?



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Bus Driver

08-08-2004 14:28:22




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Old Ford Mechanic, 08-08-2004 09:36:23  
Would that be CAV? Many, if not all, Perkins engines used CAV. Many Ford filters will interchange with the Massey (Perkins). My Long uses the same filters and has CAV pump. I think the CAV is British manufacture.



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txblu

08-09-2004 05:44:48




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Bus Driver, 08-08-2004 14:28:22  
I tend to agree as this tractor has parts marked such that I'm convinced Britian is where it was built.

Mark



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txblu

08-08-2004 12:35:32




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Old Ford Mechanic, 08-08-2004 09:36:23  
Now that you mention it, I did see CVA somewhere. Does look a bid different than my '62 Roosa. This is a '73 but it is a dist.

Thanks,

Mark



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Chris Brown

08-08-2004 09:34:39




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
Everyhting you describe indicates air bubbles in the fuel. I use a rag over the gas cap and some air pressure then bleed the filter(s) then loosen the line at the pump,don't be afraid to let a quart or so out,some people bleed a few drops and call it good and that ain't enough. Do all this a couple times and then crank/bleed the injectors and it'll run. Like already said,I have had air trouble for many hours after installing new filters. I don't think your pump is bad. They usually just quit ,cold turkey. and never run again.Or take off wide open and won't shut down till chunks blow.

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msb

08-08-2004 09:32:21




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 Doesn't sound good in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
The part about cranking and then pushing the kill button in tells me you have some problems with the metering valve.And since it won't start now tells me you need to have the injection pump rebuilt now before more damage is done.Tell me what you find when you remove that timing window.Look closely at the fuel for evidence of very fine metal or plastic shavings.Catch some in a pan if possible.



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kyhayman

08-08-2004 08:37:58




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
It could very well be the pump but it sounds to me like air. Either an air bubble in the top of the filter head or a very tiny air leak letting some small bubbles in. Generally, when I have seen pumps go it is not a 'hit and miss' but a steady decrease or a sudden stop. I've got a 7600 with a twin filter assembly and I'll fight air for 20-30 hrs after a filter change, 7710, every time I get air in the bottom tank it will do as you describe for days.

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txblu

08-08-2004 09:14:43




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to kyhayman, 08-08-2004 08:37:58  
Another wow for a fast answer.

Will certainly trace out air. As I recall bleeding fuel from the top vs bottom of the filter was faster and there was a low of volume of flow at the pump inlet, course I didn't have it opened much either.

Thanks again guys.

But I am concerned that it wouldn't even try to start after killing it. We'll see.

Mark



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Bob

08-08-2004 08:33:34




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
Air in the fuel system will cause miss and RPM surge. There could have been an air bubble left from the filter change, or you could have a tiny leak in the line from the tank, and/or a restriction in the fuel line or fitting/valve.



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txblu

08-08-2004 09:11:04




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to Bob, 08-08-2004 08:33:34  
Wow that was fast.

I'll check it this am when I get back in it.

Thanks,

Mark



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txblu

08-08-2004 08:30:48




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 Re: Roosa-Master Gave it Up? in reply to txblu, 08-08-2004 08:17:06  
Forgot to mention. After getting to the shop, I killed the engine and decided to fill up the tank and see if that helped. It wouldn't restart; not even hit once.

Possible clue. Engine has been sluggish to start so I'd keep the kill switch out for a few seconds while cranking then push it in. It'd kick right off. Maybe there is someting there. Can't tell if compression is low on the slow starting but I know that it sure-nuf won't start now.

Thanks,

Mark

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