Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Glowplugs in diesel tractors...

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Jeremy Cope

05-29-2004 23:38:55




Report to Moderator

First off let me say I know nothing about diesel engines. My father-in-law and grandfather-in-law both have diesel tractors that they claim don't have a glow plug.

My question is why does the tractor start? They even say they are easier to start than their diesel trucks. The tractors crank right up while they wait on there trucks to quit dinging.

Thanks
Jeremy




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
buickanddeere

05-30-2004 11:25:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
Non glow plug engines need to crank fast enough, have enough compression ratio, tight combustion chamber sealing and good fuel atomization. To creat enough heat to ignite fuel oil. A glow plug engine as long as the glow plugs are hot, some fuel gets slobbered on the the plugs and the engine turns. They will start.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CJ

05-30-2004 08:37:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
Glow pluge are used today on pickups EVEN when they are direct injected. Why? Because once started the glow plugs keep cycleing on and off to make less emissions!! Examples of this are the Chevy Duramax, and Ford/IH power stroke.

Direct injected engines do start easier, and all bigger tractors are direct injection, small diesels like are in compact tractors are indirect injected.

To help direct injected engines start in very cold temps., they sometimes use a kit to squirt a small bit of ether into the intake manifold. Also a "single" glowplug is sometimes used in the intake manifold to heat a few drops of fuel to vaporize it. Another way, is to have a "heater grid" in the intake, so the engine sucks heated air in as it cranks. CJ

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
DR Cy Kosis

05-30-2004 06:42:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
Direct Injection Diesels do not need glow plugs to start even in the cold. Indirect injection diesels have to have them to assist in a cold start because of the higher surface to volume ratio of the split combustion chamber drawing the heat of compression out of the air in the cylinder. Indirect injection diesels tend to be of higher compression ratio (20:1 to 23:1) for this reason also to provide unaided cold starting ability. The much lower surface to volume ratio of the direct injection engine combustion chambers alows them to start unaided at lower temperatures with lower compression ratios (16:1 to 18:1). Most of the time the mere presence of glow plugs tells you that you are looking at a indirect injection engine.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bill(Wis)

05-30-2004 06:37:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
Thermostart is a recent addition to the list of diesel engine starting aids. I've seen them advertised for NH, MF and others. I think Lucas (the Prince of Darkness) pioneered them. Delphi makes them. I don't know if one can be retrofitted to old iron.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
chris mf135

05-31-2004 07:14:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Bill(Wis), 05-30-2004 06:37:52  
thermostart new? i have a 1966 massey ferguson uk 135 (for sale by the way) that has factory thermostart on it.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ron

05-30-2004 03:08:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
The entire operating principle of a diesel engine is that when you compress a gas, you heat it. In a diesel, the gas (air) is mixed with fuel and due to the high compression ratio (14:1 - 30:1) so much heat is put into the cylinder the air/fuel mixture self-ignites.

As far as starting goes, many old diesel engines had no starting aid. In warm weather, with lots of heat in the air, they started fairly easily. In cold weather, getting them started caused a lot of new cuss words to be invented. Later, things like ether squirted into the intake manifold (dangerous but effective) and intake air preheaters (think the heating element in a toaster) were used. Then came glow plugs.

Ask your relatives and I'm sure they will tell you that getting a diesel started, especially in cold weather, is dependent on four things:

1) The starting system must be perfect... batteries, cables, starter.

2) The injector pump and injectors must be perfect.

3) Injector pump timing must be right on the money.

4) You must be using the right fuel and it must be free of water.

I've learned that in a very cold climate, block heaters and synthetic oil are very helpful.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
T_Bone

05-30-2004 09:54:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Ron, 05-30-2004 03:08:08  
To go along with what Ron said, My Dad had a '37 AC D8 crawler that he started with a 15" cresent wrench.

I was too young to pay attention to all that he went thru for starting other than what was talked about in latter years.

He turned on the fuel, ran the crank around one revolution to just before compression, then jerked on the 15" cresent over top center and the beast came alive every time.

From the sound of my PSD starting, theres no way it would start with one revolution crank even with ether and GP's and of course it requires high pressure oil to fire the injectors, the quick start down fall.

T_Bone

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
john in la

05-30-2004 00:57:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
Years of technology and government emission control to explain to really answer your question but here is the short answer.

DIRECT INJECTION VERS INDERECT INJECTION

Many ways to start a cold diesel. Use elect plug up system.
Use onboard either injection system.
Use glow plugs.
Use intake air heating grids.

Many newer diesels in pickups are using a indirect injection system that allows for a air/fuel swirling area to pre mix the air/fuel. They do this because of stricter emissions on small trucks and it requires a glow plug to start it when cold. Today’s diesels have new technology that is getting away from glow plug use. Check out the new diesel cars especially in Europe.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RAB

05-30-2004 03:15:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to john in la, 05-30-2004 00:57:49  
John,
Just to add a few more to your list.
You missed out donkey (pony in US) engines (Caterpillar), excess fuel devices (Fords, etc), cartridges and glowing tapers ( Field Marshall, Hatz) as well as 'starting on petrol first' engines (International Harvester). Ok, some of these utilise preheating the engine before running on diesel, but that's how they got them started. I don't know how low a temperature the cartridge method (for the Field Marshall) could cope with - maybe someone who knows could post. The even earlier semi-diesel designs used a blowlamp to preheat the hot spot in the combustion chamber.
Now you have had time to think about it a bit more, can you, or anyone else, think of any other methods? And lighting a fire under the engine has been used in the past!
Regards, RAB

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ron

05-30-2004 05:44:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to RAB, 05-30-2004 03:15:37  
You might be an old-timer like me. I not so fondly remember the coffee can full of sand and fuel set alight under the oil pan. Crude, dangerous, but effective.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob M

05-30-2004 08:12:16




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Ron, 05-30-2004 05:44:25  
Ron - Your post brings back memories! I can recall my wife's grandfather "warming up" his ancient F-20 before starting it for winter wood cutting by setting a fire under the engine. The tractor was pretty much black from the clutch forward!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob M

05-30-2004 05:22:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to RAB, 05-30-2004 03:15:37  
John - Here's a few more to add to your list:

- Pneumatic motor start - An air motor replaces the electric starter. A large air tank supplies the air motor. Provides a quick start by spinning the crankshaft much faster than an electric starter. Starting tank is recharged from the air brake compressor. A local truck fleet here has bunch of 'em - they have a unique (and startling..) "zip" sound when they're started. Also certain Alco diesel locomotives were started this way.

- Hydraulic starter - Works similar to the pneumatic starter only the motor is hydraulic and pressure is supplied by a N2/oil accumulator tank. Accumulator is recharged by a small hydraulic pump after the engine starts. Only offered on 2 stroke Detroit diesels as far as I know.

- Direct air start - Sequencing valves supply timed air pressure pulses to several cylinders to roll the crankshaft. Used only on very large diesels (ship propulsion, etc).

To the best of my knowledge none of the above require glow plugs, ether injection, etc. They depend on high crankng RPM to assure reliable starting.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob Clark

05-30-2004 19:48:59




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Bob M, 05-30-2004 05:22:38  
The antique engine club that runs the Portland tractor show has a Fairbanks-Morse factory engine (it take a whole semitrailer just for the engine) that starts with compressed air and heating a part of the head. Years ago in my home town of Hagerstown Indiana there was a oil pumping station (part of the city park now, but the engine is gone) that pumped crude oil for, I believe SOHIO. It had a large 1 cylinder engine. I never saw it but I could hear it from 6 miles away when the weather was right. Don't know what the bore and stroke was, but the fly wheel was 12 or 14 feet in diameter. They started it by rolling it just past top dead center, heating the cylinder head to near red hot with an acytelene torch and manually operating the injector. It would run for days on end. The exhaust would glow red and if there was a leak in the pump it would catch fire. Seemed like this was nearly an annual occurance. The brick and steal rafters in the building still have a scourced look.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RN

05-30-2004 02:19:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to john in la, 05-30-2004 00:57:49  
Newer deisel designs using higher compression/ higher pressure injection- Perkins 400 series specs 23 to 1 compression. Injection pressure up to 1000 bar. (note from GM manual- 1 bar=.92 atmosphere=14.2 lbs/inch as near as I can remember.) Finer spray/smaller droplets in swirling air pocket give cleaner burn/easier starts. RN



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RN

05-30-2004 00:26:02




Report to Moderator
 Re: Glowplugs in diesel tractors... in reply to Jeremy Cope, 05-29-2004 23:38:55  
What kind of tractors? My older brother has JD 430 and 950 -green painted rebadged Jap Yamners- with smallbore/high compression engines. Younger brother uses IHC560d with glowplugs each cylinder-somewhat bigger bore/lower compression. I have IHC350d with a manifold heater/ no glowplugs in cylinder, about same bore/compression as 560. Check if pistons have small depression/cup/hollow - have seen White pistons with MANN pattern combustion areas, direct injection/ no glowplug. Mercedes pattern had half hemisphere depression in head and matching half in piston- no glowplug, some had manifold heater. RN.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy