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R-134a substitutes (automotive AC)

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Mike (WA)

03-10-2004 08:13:13




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Need to upgrade the AC on the '88 Buford this spring- everybody seems to dislike R-134a, and I have seen mention of several substitutes, but it would be helpful to many to see them listed all in one place, with sources and/or websites. Also comments on how well they work. Thanks.




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jdemaris

03-10-2004 19:02:10




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
What is your problem with 134A? It's easy to buy (no license needed), and seems to work fine. I've done over a dozen of my own vehicles with it with no problems that relate to the the refrigerant itself. I had a few friends that complained it was "no good", but after looking in to it a bit, the problem was their installation. One guy simply installed the gas without pulling a vacuum on the system first. That won't work well with any refrigerant. Another guy complained that it leaked out faster than the R12 did, and that's true. He should of fixed the hoses. 134A and a few other commercial refrigerants have a smaller molecular structure than R12, and as a result, can escape from many types of rubber hose. Commercial stuff usually has no rubber, so it's not problem. Cars and trucks, however, have to use rubber lines since they hook to an engine that jumps around on rubber motor-mounts. Most cars built for use with R12 used rubber hoses that are more porous than the new ones. When 134A came out, AC hoses for cars were changed to "barrier hoses", which means they have a special liner inside to better hold gasses like 134A.

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Greengo

03-10-2004 21:59:26




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 Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to jdemaris, 03-10-2004 19:02:10  
134 is a good substitute, the trucking industry
has used teflon lined lines for quite a few
years and have no problems. I have seen some that will run you out of the cab it gets so cold.
Like jdemaris said you can buy it anywhere
and don't have to have a license. I have a
license to buy R12 but the cost is enormous.
Go with 134.



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Cosmo

03-10-2004 15:05:46




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
I changed a Chevy car and truck over to 134 last spring and they both work fine. I got the kits at Advanced Auto. Parts. I just bled em out and filled em up. In case the EPA is listening I had a mechanic suck the r12 out for proper disposal.:)



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Jon H

03-10-2004 11:10:18




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
Be sure you understand what you are using when you look at an alternate refrigerant that contains hydrocarbon. Most are a blend of propane and butane and are very flamible. The only two refrigerants recognized by the EPA as sutible are R12 (gone) and 134a..
There are 18 states (mine included) that outlaw flamible refrigerants as unsafe in mobil ac systems. I have argued with guys on this site and others about not using hydrocarbon refrigerants
as I feel they are unsafe, I had no real world experience with the stuff,so I thought I should buy a can of it and test it to separate the bull from the truth. I opened a can of 134a and directed a stream of it at a propane torch flame,I could not make it burn or support an open flame. I repeated the test with a much hotter actelene/oxygen torch flame with the same results of no fire from 134a
I tried directing a stream of 134a into an open gasoline flame with the same results,it would not burn or increase the gasoline flame. Next I turned the can upside down and sprayed the gasoline fire with a stream of liquid 134a. It extinguished the gasoline flame much like a halon fire extinguisher. Halon is a close relative of Freon,thats why it also was banned.
I directed a stream of 134a at a white hot chunk of steel, it would not burn

Next I tried the can of hydrocarbon refrigerant. I found that the a single spark from my torch lighter would ignite the stuff into long yellow flames. The open flame of either torch would instantly light the stuff. I found that a chunk of steel heated to anything above dull red would instantly light the stuff. I directed a stream of both liquid and vapor hydrocarbon refrigerant into an open gasoline flame which caused the refrigerant to burn and made the gasoline burn wildly. The stuff acts like what it is, propane/butane stove gas.
One thing that really disturbed me was that the particular brand of hydrocarbon refrigerant I was using had a sweet pine smell odorant added instead of the skunk like ethyl mercaptain normally used in propane.. So instead of smelling the familiar odor of propane and thinking yikes !!, I have a propane leak,one might think Hmm nice pine air freshener in this rig. Cant imagine why they would do that unless they think a propane odor from the normal small leaks most ac systems have would scare customers away.

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Bob

03-10-2004 17:10:34




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 Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Jon H, 03-10-2004 11:10:18  
John H,

Do you define Freeze-12 as a flammable refrigerant? See the website.



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Jon H

03-10-2004 19:50:33




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 Re: Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Bob, 03-10-2004 17:10:34  
The web site claims it is not flamible and the MSDS says the two gasses used in it are not propane or butane. In section 5 of the MSDS under fire fighting/flamible properties it lists it as having a flash point of 300 degrees F. If it was mine to do I would tap a can of the stuff and do a flame test of the contents. I have converted all my Tractors/combines/cars/pickups to 134a and have had good results. I like being able to buy 134a at any auto parts store/Wallmart/K mart without a license and not having to have dedicated guage set/recovery equipment/fittings for a specialty refrigerant gas. Also I do not like using a refrigerant composed of two or more gasses with the tendency to leak the lighter of the gasses and cause an unbalanced blend that can not be just topped up like 134a.

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Bob

03-10-2004 17:17:03




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 Re: Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Bob, 03-10-2004 17:10:34  
See also:



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Bob

03-10-2004 10:42:14




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
As far as operation, Freeze 12 is a drop-in replacement for R-12 and works great without the need to change oil and flush the system.

I have heard some rumors that there may be a time it becomes unavailable due to environmental concerns, but at least for now it is available, and works just fine.

Any such refrigerant that is a blend of differant refrigerants may suffer from a lessening of system performance over time, because the "most leaky" components of the blend will sneak out of the system first, leaving the lower boiling-point components. This is not a problem with most ag equipment systems, because, like it or not, over the period of a year, all the refrigerant will probably leak out in the off season, when the machine is not being used, and be replaced with a fresh charge the next spring.

Be sure there is adequate oil charge remaining before recharging, and pull a vaccuum on the system to remove non-condensibles, which degrade cooling performance, and make the compressor work harder.

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RB

03-10-2004 09:51:10




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
I too would like a list prepared by some type of independent group that would not be influenced by government or manufacturers, but I doubt that will happen. After 10 or 12 years I've finally settled on R134a and Freeze12. There's been so much confusion as to what will work or won't work. You are told one thing and later you find out different. After experimenting for all this time I've found what works for me, but it's sure been a hassle. What else would you expect from something that is regulated by the Governorment!

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tlak

03-10-2004 09:38:54




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
If you put Freeze 12 in a search I think you can find somebody online who sells. Ebay has it. Ive called quit a few places and most parts stores only carry what the compressor manufactures warrantee covers.



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RB

03-10-2004 10:04:23




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 Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to tlak, 03-10-2004 09:38:54  
You must have a license to purchase Freeze12. I couldn't beleive it when 134a was available to any Tom Dick and Harry. The government outlawed R12 for this reason (not the only reason) and then go right back and allow anyone to purchase a pressurized container of dangerous material. Now the newest systems are going to have around 2000lb. pressure, looks like another 10 years of headaches.



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Mike

03-10-2004 12:53:15




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 Re: Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to RB , 03-10-2004 10:04:23  
You only need a license to buy small amounts of R-12. anyone can go buy a 30# can of it if they can afford it.



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Greengo

03-10-2004 22:04:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike, 03-10-2004 12:53:15  
In our area you need a license to purchase
R12 period. No exceptions!!



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Ben in KY

03-10-2004 08:20:08




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 Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2004 08:13:13  
Good question. I am in the same predicament. Awaiting input form those more knowlegable than myself.



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geo. h.

03-10-2004 11:54:02




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 Re: Re: R-134a substitutes (automotive AC) in reply to Ben in KY, 03-10-2004 08:20:08  
I retired as mech. for auto dealer ship and still carry licence to by, the r134a is compatable with r12 refrig oil now, it cost around 35.00 to retrofit plus cost of freon whitch i think is high, allso i dont feel it cools as good as r12, just my feelings gh.



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