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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Why do JD engines go putt-putt?

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PD

02-13-2004 20:20:58




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I have read the various forums here for a couple years. Though not a Deere fan necessarily, I have learned way more than I ever thought possible about old tractors, especially John Deere. A topic I have yet to see discussed is why JD two-bangers go "putt-putt" when they run, and why all the shake when running. I have a two cylinder Wisconsin engine which runs smooth, Harley two bangers run smooth, etc. Why do the JD engines run so rough, go putt-putt, and why can't they be made to run smoother? Are the pistons synchronized or do they run opposite of each other? I don't know about other two cylinder engines in old tractors, i.e. Hart Parr and International and others. Do they go putt-putt as well or did they run smooth? Not trying to start a war, would just like to know. Thanks and regards..... ...P

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Joe

02-14-2004 18:57:08




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
Our G model did not "putt-putt". It did not shake. It was a beast. Under load, plowing, it was a lot like a non stop rapid fire artillery barrage.



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Jon H

02-14-2004 17:01:52




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
Lets not forget,if it's an old flywheel start JD with the decompression/drain valves open it goes "pasnifff pasnifff :)



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Mark

02-15-2004 05:23:38




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 Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Jon H, 02-14-2004 17:01:52  
Great choice of words..... ..... ...and accurate too.

Ok, since we are all curious here why did John come up with that kind of scheme? Did he figure that if he hit the massive flywheel with 2 quick smacks rather than "an alternate firing twin" he could get more bang for his buck?

Probably so (for what I know about it). Neighbor has 3 poppers and his 720 diesel can handle as much plow as my 4020 as fast or faster and if I read the dyno's correctly, he's at 55 hp and I at 96...both diesels.

Mark

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Steven

02-14-2004 14:53:22




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  



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Steven

02-14-2004 14:49:41




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
third party image

Take a look at this. If this works!



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Jon H

02-14-2004 08:01:22




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
The Wisconsin 2 cyl is even fire with both pistons comming up together and firing 1 per revolution. If you get a look inside the Wisconsin crankcase, you would see it has a large counterweight on the crankshaft to balance the mass of both pistons/rods moving in the same direction at the same time. The JD crankshaft is a 180 degree design which needs little or no counterweighting,but gives that rough,uneven firing order. The Wisconsin has a smooth,distinct,put put sound,while the JD has more of a prup prup sound with both cylinders firing in 1/2 revolution,then coasting for 1-1/2 revolution.

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Joe Evans

02-14-2004 06:32:31




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
Roin has it pretty good. A Harley's firing pattern is similar--hit,hit...miss,miss. A Harley engine's 45 degree cylinder layout keeps all the reciprocating mass from being on the same axis as a JD, but I'll bet if a Harley has as much recip mass as a JD60, it would hop up and down off the ground. Incidentally, I HAVE started my W-9 just to hear it run.



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Fern(Mi)

02-14-2004 05:25:46




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
Not being RED, it ain't firing on the missing two cylinders it ain't got.
he he he .



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IH GUY

02-16-2004 16:39:46




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 Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Fern(Mi), 02-14-2004 05:25:46  
cause it took 10 years for them to figure out that they were 40 years behind everyone else



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Les...fortunate

02-14-2004 04:55:32




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
Look at the distributor. The ones I've seen are made for 4 plug wires but only 2 of them are used. The ones that are used are not opposite each other but adjacent to each other. In other words, they fire HIT-HIT, miss-miss rather than HIT-miss, HIT-miss. That's a rough idea of how it works. Maybe that helps you to see how it runs the way it does. (But probably not.)



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Cosmo

02-14-2004 03:29:08




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
Whatever the reason-I like it! Several years ago I had a model M. I would start it lots of times just for the pleasure of hearing it run. I can't say that I have ever started my MF for the same reason.



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old

02-13-2004 21:00:55




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
As the other guys says, and also Harleys don't run smooth as a matter of fact they are one of the few companys that in there manauls tell you to use lock tite on all of the bolts etc.



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Roin 1456

02-13-2004 20:53:12




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 Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to PD, 02-13-2004 20:20:58  
The reason for the sound is because of the way the crankshaft is made. After number one cylinder fires the crankshaft turns 180 degrees and then number 2 fires. The crankshaft then turns 540 degrees before number one fires again.



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Paul in Mich

02-14-2004 07:34:38




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 Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Roin 1456, 02-13-2004 20:53:12  
Roin,

I have to disagree with you in a sense. actually if you listen to a John Deere they dont go putt-putt. That would be one piston firing at point zero and the other firing at 180. A complete revolution is of course 360 degrees. If you look at the mag or distributor, I think you will see one contact at zero and one contact at 270. The mag or distributor is geared to rotate half the speed as the crank which means that one revolution of the crank is compression stroke, the other is power stroke, therefore the two cylinders are both firing on the same revolution and firing depending how you look at it 0 and 270 or 90 and 270. This makes the sound more like Putt-tut....Putt-tut....Putt-tut.

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greenbeanman

02-14-2004 09:39:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Paul in Mich, 02-14-2004 07:34:38  
A 4 cycle engine has each piston firing at 720º of crankshaft turn rather than at 360º.

#1 Down piston--Suction or intake.
#2 Up piston--Compression of the fuel air mixture.
#3 Down piston--Firing and the power stroke.
#4 Up piston--The exhaust stroke, and then the cycle repeats.

What is being said is that the John Deere two cylinder doesn't fire a piston at the end of each 360º rotation, but fires both cylinders during one 360º rotation.

The flywheel then carries the engine until the first piston fires again after a full 720º from when it first fired, the second 180º after that.

0º-180º Intake on #1, exhaust on #2
180-360ºCompression on #1, intake on #2
TDC (theory)Firing at 360º #1 piston
360-540º Power stroke on #1, compression on #2
TDC Firing at 540º #2
540-720º Exhaust on #1, power stroke on #2

Geez, I hope I've got that right.

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Paul in Mich

02-14-2004 17:29:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to greenbeanman, 02-14-2004 09:39:29  
Greenbean, You said it much better than I did. I didn't realize how difficult it would be to explain putt-tut.....putt-tut.....putt-tut.



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buickanddeere

02-14-2004 09:35:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Paul in Mich, 02-14-2004 07:34:38  
The mag or distributor on lettered and early numbered gas/allfuel two cylinders rotates at crank speed. It fired on both cylinders exhaust strokes too. LP and 20/30 series two cylinders had a 1/2 speed ditributor drive. The two cylinder with opposed pistons had less crankcase pumping loses than the Wisconsin that had the pistons moving as a pair.



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Rusty Jones

02-14-2004 08:54:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Paul in Mich, 02-14-2004 07:34:38  
With all of this Putt-Putt-Tut-Pu- AWW, i guess i'll have to go listen to one run! My farmer friend has one still in use! RJ



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steveormary

02-14-2004 09:47:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Why do JD engines go putt-putt? in reply to Rusty Jones, 02-14-2004 08:54:59  

Probably made to sound like that.



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