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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

volts and amps again

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Drill

01-23-2004 07:58:21




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I just loved the discusion about volts and amps. Some seem to think my comparison with gallons and pressure was reversed. Could very well be, but being a Canadian, my electricity is in metric so I have to deal with some real weird measurements like Joules, kiloPascals, and decaNewtons, talk about confusing.

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CH

01-24-2004 14:02:36




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 Re: volts and amps again in reply to Drill, 01-23-2004 07:58:21  
I work for a German companyand deal with it daily. We should have switched to metric 35 years ago when the government put up all the billboards and other adds. Nobody likes change.

We still have amps and volts. Everybody technical measures energy in joules, potential difference in volts, current in amps (Oh by the way, it flows from negitive to positive). Hey, that would mean it flows from the nozzle back to spicket.

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Benj. J. Joe Browning

01-23-2004 11:21:35




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 Re: volts and amps again in reply to Drill, 01-23-2004 07:58:21  
Hello, Please check my postings in the original question listing. Is my thinking correct? Thanks, Joe



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jdemaris

01-23-2004 14:17:06




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 Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Benj. J. Joe Browning, 01-23-2004 11:21:35  
I'm not sure exactly which of your posts you are referring to, but if it's the one I've pasted at the end of this message, I'll add a few comments for what's it's worth. This seems to be turning into some sort of thought-experiment rather than a general question. I don't believe you've included enough specific information for an astute and absolute answer. For example, you state that 110 volts and a 15 amp breaker with 14 gauge wire will only operate eight "plugs." In this context, what does "only" mean? Unacceptable voltage drop, a device that won't operate, or a tripped breaker? When caclulating wire runs and sizes, there is a relationship between length of run, gauge, material and estimated temperature of wire, and the subsequent voltgage drop. Depending on what device is to be operated, sometimes a certain drop can be tolerated, and sometimes not. If a motor is involved, ampacity is another factor. As far as how the flow of water relates to all this, It's used as a simple analogy - and not intended to connote a mirror-image of electron theory. And, perhaps, I don't understand your question? Below is the posting I am referring to.

"Hello Everyone Again, I agree that the comparsion to water works best. On the practical side. Is the following correct?
Using a 110 volt (pressure of water) 15 Amp(volume of water) breaker. The wire size of 14 guage (diameter of pipe means only a fixed volume) will only operate eight plugs (sprinklers).
However using a 110 volt(pressure of water) 20 Amp (volume of water)) breaker. The wire size of 12 guage ( diameter of the pipe is greater meaning more volume) will operate 11 plugs (sprinklers)
Am I correct in my understanding and description?
How does watterage inter into the entire scheme?
Thanks, Benjamin J. "Joe" Browning"

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Dell (WA)

01-24-2004 11:29:18




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 Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to jdemaris, 01-23-2004 14:17:06  
Joe..... ...what jdemaris sez..... and..... ..you write..... ...
On the practical side. Is the following correct?
(1) Using a 110 volt (pressure of water) 15 Amp(volume of water) breaker. The wire size of 14 guage (diameter of pipe means only a fixed volume) will only operate eight plugs (sprinklers)..... ...thats ok
(2) However using a 110 volt(pressure of water) 20 Amp (volume of water)) breaker. The wire size of 12 guage ( diameter of the pipe is greater meaning more volume) will operate 11 plugs (sprinklers)..... ..thats ok
Am I correct in my understanding and description?Yes, BUT.....

To further amplify your understanding: IFF (by defination): a good sprinkler is a 10' squirt. In version (2) If'n wire size was 14 ga w/20amp, you would still only beable to operate 8 sprinklers..... .or..... if 15 amp breaker w/12ga wire you'd still only beable to operate 8 sprinklers.....BUT....if'n you were happy with an 8' squirt, you'd probably get 10 sprinklers to squirt 8' in each case..... .....Dell

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Drill

01-23-2004 16:18:41




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 Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to jdemaris, 01-23-2004 14:17:06  
Again there is no right and wrong, just what I use to keep from confusing myself. I prefer it the other way around with volts as volumne and amps as pressure. Works either way, but wattage won't work in this equation. If you really want to confuse your self try figuring out 3 phase power, with a wye configuation at the generator.



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buickanddeere

01-24-2004 05:22:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Drill, 01-23-2004 16:18:41  
Ok add power factor to the equation as well. just remembe rthe sine of the angle and the square root of three "1.41". Seems to be lots of people who can't afford an electricion but can afford poor equipmnet operation, equipment damage and fires causing loss of possions and life. If I see another farmer fix where some a$$ has run NMD-7 as an temporary fix, that has now been in service for years. Or can't understand the neutral and ground is not the same. I'm going to choke the twit.

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buickanddeere....senior's

01-25-2004 19:19:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to buickanddeere, 01-24-2004 05:22:32  
Square root of s is 1.41 for calulating peak voltage from rms values for AC power. So a "480" three phase service has 677.0 volts phase to phase for a instant 120 times per second. The square root of 3 is 1.73. That's for three phase to single phase calculations. A 10KW 480 v single phase load would be 20.83 amps on both wires. A three phase 480v 10KW load would have 12.04 amps on each of the three wires.

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Frank

01-23-2004 08:52:14




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 Re: volts and amps again in reply to Drill, 01-23-2004 07:58:21  
Nope, its easier with metric!
A volt is a measure of the work done per unit of charge transferred, a "Juoule/coulomb"
An ampere is the time RATE of charge transfer, a "coulomb/second"
This is why taking current time voltage will yield Power, the rate of doing the work: [ J/coulomb] x {coulomb/sec] = J/sec

1 watt = 1 Joule/second

Its a lot harder with foot-pounds and horsepower.



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Ben in KY

01-23-2004 09:45:56




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 Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Frank, 01-23-2004 08:52:14  
Metric or SAE easier. Depends on what you have learned and used. Many years ago when the metric system started being taught in the US school system. I asked the teacher how many feet, etc was equal to one meter. His reply was that I did not need to know because they were different things and he was teaching the metric system !

My biggest gripe is the mixing of the 2 systems on one piece of machinery. Is it a 10mm or a 7/16?? US automakers deserve a boot in the nether regions for doing this.

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jdemaris

01-23-2004 10:36:12




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 Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Ben in KY, 01-23-2004 09:45:56  
Hey, maybe that's why my goats keep getting out. My electric fence charger's output is rated in Joules, an my American-born goats don't recognize the metric system. On the subject of cars and metric. It still ticks me off. Years ago, as I recall, Ford was the first to sell a U.S. built car with a mixture of U.S.S., S.A.E., and metric hardware. The metric stuff was supposed to be color-coded with blue. Now, I work on new stuff and still don't know what to expect. On my wall, I've got Americans tools, metric, and even a few Whitworth wrenches hanging around - and still come up short at times.

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Ben in KY

01-23-2004 11:14:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to jdemaris, 01-23-2004 10:36:12  
Maybe it is a conspiracy between the tool and auto makers to make us buy more tools :)



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Drill

01-23-2004 11:37:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Ben in KY, 01-23-2004 11:14:13  
You are all right, neither system is "easier". It depends on which one you are familar with. When Canada changed over most of the trouble was caused by people tring to convert from one system to the other, which I must confess I still do.
My two sons, who did all their schooling with metric, use it all the time with no problems. Whenever I talk to them about pounds, feet, yards, mph, etc they just look at me like some relic of the past.
About the only thing not changed is farming, we still plant acres, not hectares, sell our cattle by pounds, not kilograms, but we buy our fuel by liter, and fertilizer by the metric tonne(pronounced "tone")

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Ben in KY

01-23-2004 12:34:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Drill, 01-23-2004 11:37:53  
Drill,
How much is a metric tonne in SAE type of measurement ?



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Heat Houser

01-23-2004 14:41:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Ben in KY, 01-23-2004 12:34:35  
My recollection is 2204 lbs equals 1 metric ton.



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donm

01-23-2004 14:40:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps again in reply to Ben in KY, 01-23-2004 12:34:35  
Metric tonne is 2204.6 pounds US. Or US ton ( also known in international shipping as a "short ton" of 2000 lbs. is .9078% of a metric "tonne".



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Drill

01-23-2004 16:12:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: volts and amps aga in reply to donm, 01-23-2004 14:40:50  
Your right about the metric tonne, we just use 2200 pounds.



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