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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

another look at volts, amps and watts

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Lew

01-22-2004 22:15:46




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When 6,250,000,000,000,000,000 electrons pass a point in one second there is one amp of current (amps) flowing through that circuit. The push (electrical pump) that causes the flow is called voltage and is created by some system that separates neutral atoms into positive and negative charges. That is done by moving the electrons (- charges) away from the atom leaving it as a (+) positive charge. A battery uses chemical action and a generator uses magnetic force. The rate at which work is done is called power and measured in watts. One watt is the product of one amp times one volt. One horsepower is the same as 746 watts. The thing to remember is that voltage is measured between two places (across) and current is measured through a conductor.

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Benj. J. Joe Browning

01-23-2004 11:23:57




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 Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Lew, 01-22-2004 22:15:46  
Hello Everyone, Please check my postings in the original volts,amps, and watts section. Is my thinking correct?
Thanks, Joe



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Dell (EA)

01-24-2004 11:50:53




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Benj. J. Joe Browning, 01-23-2004 11:23:57  
Joe..... ...you write..... ...On the practical side..... ... Is the following correct?
(1) Using a 110 volt (pressure of water) 15 Amp(volume of water) breaker. The wire size of 14 guage (diameter of pipe means only a fixed volume) will only operate eight plugs (sprinklers)..... ...thats ok
(2) However using a 110 volt(pressure of water) 20 Amp (volume of water)) breaker. The wire size of 12 guage ( diameter of the pipe is greater meaning more volume) will operate 11 plugs (sprinklers)..... ..thats ok
Am I correct in my understanding and description?Yes, BUT.....

To further amplify your understanding: IFF (by defination): a good sprinkler is a 10' squirt. In version (2) If'n wire size was 14 ga w/20amp, you would still only beable to operate 8 sprinklers..... .or..... if 15 amp breaker w/12ga wire you'd still only beable to operate 8 sprinklers.....BUT....if'n you were happy with an 8' squirt, you'd probably get 10 sprinklers to squirt 8' in each case..... .....Dell

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Bill

01-23-2004 13:46:20




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Benj. J. Joe Browning, 01-23-2004 11:23:57  
One must always keep in mind that electricity is a theory. Reality sets in when mice have built a nest on the battery and goats have pretty well chewed up the wires. Field expedient genius usually comes into play at this point although my uncle managed to set his tractor on fire during a simular circumstance.



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Joe Evans

01-23-2004 07:22:08




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 Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Lew, 01-22-2004 22:15:46  
There is a PUSH to electrical flow. In a battery at the negative post there is a mass of electrons. They, being of the same charge (-), can't stand each others' company and want to get the heck away. Open a door to an area where there is an absence of electrons or fewer electrons (+), there is a mass exodus of electrons to the more positive place at dang near the speed of light. Electron flow is from negative to positive. I suppose you COULD say the is a DRAW to electron flow as the electrons certainly are attracted to a more positive place. I've heard more than one electrician make the comment about a blown (pushed) fuse or breaker as having 'sucked' (drawn) a fuse or 'sucked' a breaker.

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RAB

01-23-2004 12:14:38




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Joe Evans, 01-23-2004 07:22:08  
Joe, Even though the apparent speed of reaction may be very fast (time between switch-on and effect), the actual electrons only move at a rate of a few millimetres per second (or a fraction of an inch per second for the old fashioned units).
Also, it was only the fact that the discoverers of how electricity worked decided, at that time, that the flow was from 'positve' to 'negative', (and got it wrong) that actual electron flow is opposite to our current flow convention. It was too much upheaval to change everything around, by the time it was fully understood!
Regards, RAB

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42FarmallH

01-23-2004 07:18:36




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 Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Lew, 01-22-2004 22:15:46  
Don't forget that in order to have amps or current you need to complete the circuit through some sort of resistor (light bulb, electric motor, etc.)...



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RAB

01-23-2004 12:41:01




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to 42FarmallH, 01-23-2004 07:18:36  
Of course, not entirely true. You still have a current in vacuum devices, like cathode ray tubes (TV tubes, among others) where the electrons are travelling at high speed. And in liquids, the current carrying model is that of positive and negative ions (not free electrons) within the conducting medium. Semiconductors (transistors etc) are yet another group. Then, when we come to super conductors, there is no resistance at all!!!
I think we perhaps need to stick to Ohmic conductors on a tractor board.....
Regards, RAB

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Ben in KY

01-23-2004 09:31:18




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to 42FarmallH, 01-23-2004 07:18:36  
Or thru yourself :)



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Don Wadge

01-23-2004 06:42:34




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 Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Lew, 01-22-2004 22:15:46  
Well I'm no expert at electrical theory but I never thought of there being any push to electrical flow. Rather there is a draw. jdemaris has used the example of opening a faucet. That is push. If you leave an open ended live wire there is no flow until there is a completed circuit by something to draw the electricity.



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jdemarra

01-23-2004 07:36:10




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Don Wadge, 01-23-2004 06:42:34  
Water flow analogy was offered as a very simple explanation for someone who is clueless on the subject of electricity, and nothing more. On that level, I believe it works well. At another level, we could discuss quarks and bosons, non-Newtonian theory, Special Theory of Relativity, relationship/comparison of electron flow to that of photons, and photons to gravitons, super conductivity at supercold temperatures (as used in MRIs), etc. If anyone out there has actually seen an electron, please post an image.

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Rufus Windrow (ETD revisi

01-23-2004 09:38:31




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 Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to jdemarra, 01-23-2004 07:36:10  
Well, I have seen an electron, many of them in fact. Unfortunately I didn't have my digital computer camera with me in '28 while in the cab of my uncle's '23 Essex Tri-Diretional stubblemaster, however the electons were there in the cab, jumping from corner to corner. Rumor has it in our county that many of those electrons went right on through the center of my head and that's why my memory is so sharp and accurate. Yessiree, nothing like a nice show of electrons to break up the drudgery of plowing.

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RAB

01-23-2004 12:53:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and wa in reply to Rufus Windrow (ETD revisi, 01-23-2004 09:38:31  
C'mon Rufus, you know they didn't jump from corner to corner as the cab was/is a Faraday cage (and so they had to run round the outside). The actual mode of electron movement in your head was where the electricians got their term of 'sucking' a fuse..... ....and the semiconductor designers used the term 'doping' and 'dope'.
Sounds like it wasn't too much for you, if you are still remembering those good old days when the ETD plowed the land using auto-magnetic levitation of the furrow!
Regards,RAB

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Rufus WIndrow

01-23-2004 13:59:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps an in reply to RAB, 01-23-2004 12:53:37  
Well now, after a lot of thought to what you say, I guess my furrows and windrows wasn't quite as dead-on as I thought they were. I still think them electrons were inside though.



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Ben in KY

01-23-2004 09:36:45




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 Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to jdemarra, 01-23-2004 07:36:10  
After working with electricity/electronics for most of my life I can say that I DO feel them occasionally when I foul up :) I seem to see a lot of them when welding, but this just might be the effect of electrons and not the electrons themselves.



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jdemaris

01-23-2004 05:30:46




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 Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Lew, 01-22-2004 22:15:46  
Yes, but much of the didactic stuff is still based on electron THEORY, i.e. no one has actually seen the electrons as they do their thing. I don't believe it has been proven yet if neg. charge attracts pos., or vice-versa. A good, non-erudite explanation is comparing electricity to a water faucet. Voltage is the water pressure, and amperage is the flow once the faucet is turned on. Watts equals volts times amps, and for some reason, I've been seeing the term "volt-amps" used instead of "watts" unless its connotation is for something different.

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Bigdog

01-23-2004 06:41:50




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 Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to jdemaris, 01-23-2004 05:30:46  
I believe wattage is "actual" power and volt-amps is "apparent" power. Straight resistive loads would be rated in wattage. Inductive or capacitive loads would be rated in volt-amps.



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buickanddeere

01-23-2004 07:44:34




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 Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and watts in reply to Bigdog, 01-23-2004 06:41:50  
Volt amps is the apparant power on an inductive or capacitive loads. Real power is volts x amps x power factor. That's how induction motors circulate reactive power in and out that doesn't do work. Just wastes power warming the conductors and requiring oversize feeders right back to the power plant. The solution is better motor/ballast design and adding capacitors at the final terminal box. The country wouldn't have a power shortage and would pollute much less if every electrical device had to have a PF of .9 or better.

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Steveormary

01-23-2004 10:10:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps and wa in reply to buickanddeere, 01-23-2004 07:44:34  

It takes 1 volt to push 1 amp thru 1 ohm.

Volt=pressure Amp=volume ohm=resistence



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buickanddeere

01-23-2004 11:57:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amps an in reply to Steveormary, 01-23-2004 10:10:11  
A motor drawing 50.0amps on an ammeter may have 30.0 amps of reactive current lagging 90 degrees out of phase behind the applied voltage and 40.0 amps of current in phase with the applied voltage doing work. If I remeber correctly that's a lousy P.F. of .75 and a lagging angle of 41.4 degrees. By adding powerfactor correction capacitors drawing 30.00 amps of current leading the applied voltage by 90 degrees. The motor's measured current will now be 40.0 amps. Saving 30.0amp coming from the utility generator to the motor and back. And the conductors now can be sized for 40.0amp. Only thing that reactive/capacitive current does is cause I squared R losses and require larger conductors. Now the current will just circulate between the motor and capacitor. The utility will just see the motors work load and minor losses. I realize the number don't appear to add up but we are looking at angles rather than straight lines.

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zoidberg

01-24-2004 05:52:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: another look at volts, amp in reply to buickanddeere, 01-23-2004 11:57:46  
Good work! You convinced me.



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