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OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opinions

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KURT (mi)

01-11-2004 03:23:09

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Yesterday at 6AM my 90+% furnace wouldnt fireup. And it was 10 degrees F outside. Thank god for my woodburning stove, I was able to keep the house at 65 degrees for 8 hours until a service tech got here. The problem with the furnace is that one small rubber line got a hole in it and was causing a back pressure problem. It took the guy 15 minutes to find the problem and I was up and running again. Now here is my concern. That high efficency furnace cost $2400 or so, (I purchased it when I built the house new in 99) I asked the service tech how long the 90+% furnaces last and he said about 10 years. I then said well a regular 80% furnace is about $800 or so. For the extra 1600 dollar difference I get to save about $150/year in Propane. What do you guys think of the high eff. furnaces, are they worth the money and hassle. Or should I just buy the 80% furnace in 5 years from now--of course I will have to have a metal flue installed.

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Don LC

01-11-2004 19:40:36

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

I have a high efficiency furnace --- nothing but trouble..... i have spent a fortune on service calls and repairs.....no more for me ,it will be replaced with the older style,when it goes again....

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steve

01-11-2004 17:18:23

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

I work for a propane company and have for 16+ yrs and for starters if you pay more than 1800.00 for a new furnace you are getting screwed. I have installed hundreds of furnaces. each have their own advantages and disadvantages. 90+ furnace are great but like you say, is it really worth it...mostly I say it is. key things to remember when buying a furnace is brand name...there are alot of good ones out there. among my faves are amana, york, and lennox...its like buying a car...do you want a neon or a cadillac...both will get you to work but one will out perform the other on a bad day...80 percenters are great...but at todays rising fuel costs, I don't know...6 of one...half a dozen of the other...take care of your furnace and it will take care of you...as far as replacing every 10 yrs...I think not...maintenance is the key...change the filter monthly...keep it clean and free of debris...15-20 yrs would be more like an average number of years that a newer furnace should last without trouble...why else do you think companies like lennox will sell extended warranties that will cover just about anything major for years? not because they are selling junk.

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Ben in KY

01-11-2004 16:51:06

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

My experience with the 90+ efficiency furnaces is not good. It seems that your service/repair costs for the high efficiency units eat up any fuel savings you get. I prefer the 80%. More reliable whivh is what I want in my heating system, hate waking up cold :(

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Irv

01-11-2004 13:19:11

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

I have a 90+ Carrier furnace, for 13 years, no problems yet. I do put in a new filter once a year. My Propane bill is about $400 a year for a 2200 sq foot house. My neighbor has electric and he told me his electric bill is $6000 per year! I previuosly had electric, and I was paying as much as 400 per month. My neighbor said that when these house were built, the elcetric co. gave out great rates. Later they changed the rules. At one time electricty was plentiful, until 1974 or so. Then when oil went from $2 a barrel to $10 the rates went up fast! The arabs and texans got rich fast too! Irv

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Ed Hotaling

01-11-2004 08:13:36

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

I worked in the HVAC business for more years than I care to remember. When the high efficiency furnaces first came out, the folks installing them tried to do it the same way as they did the old 50% efficiency units. The reason they got a bad rap is that the installation instructions have to be followed TO THE LETTER or you will have trouble. Even the ones with big design flaws run well if installed correctly.
As for your specific problem, that can happen with any furnace, regardless of design. It sounds like you have an old-school service man. The old school guys I worked with tought me a lot, but I had to learn to follow mfr's instructions on my own.
That said, I had more trouble with 80% furnaces because of flue condensation. Again, the installation makes the difference. If the guy hooking it up thinks he's still working in the 1960's, you will have trouble. If the installer does it right, any hot air furnace should last between 15 and 20 years with regular maintenance (above all else, KEEP THE FILTER CLEAN!!). Of course, everyone makes a stinker and there are a few that will go on for ages.
If you do change to a low-efficiency furnace, make sure the flue is installed EXACTLY as the instructions say or you will be very dissatisfied with it.

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daveo

01-11-2004 07:32:04

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

Kurt,

I worked for a heating contractor in 1989 and installed a 92% furnace at that time, replacing a 25 year old standard furnace. The fuel (nat gas) consumption was cut by almost half. The furnace has had nothing done to it in past 15 years except routine filter changes & lubrication. There is no way you could get me to buy any other type of heating.

Best wishes!
daveo

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Red Tom

01-11-2004 07:20:03

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

I'm not an expert but my high efficiency furnace has run fo 10 plus years with no problem. My dad replaced his 30 year old with same about five years ago and just about cut his bill in half. Nat'l gas in Mich.and not a "pulse" I know one thing though, you can't use them in the shop where you will be shutting them off and/or letting the temp fluctuate. as far as heat exchangers, they are all cheap and I don't think any of them will last thirty years like the old days.

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jdemaris

01-11-2004 06:49:50

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

In my opinion, most high-effiecny furnaces are a waste or time and money. I don't work with them on a daily basis, but have worked as a heating tech guy in the past and know some people in the business. I'm in Central New York and temps. sometimes get down to -35F (last night it was -22F). First consideration is reliability. Most techs. guys that I know have stopped installing high-efficiencly furnaces due to reliability problems. That goes for oil, gas, or propane. A furnace that is rated 75% efficient that lasts 20-30 years is cheaper than a furnace rated at 85% and breaks down often and finally dies in 10 years. Keep in mind the cost of service calls, plumbing, etc. unless you do it all yourself. Second consideration is the fuel itself. Propane has a very low engergy value per dollar; oil gives you much more for your buck, and better yet is natural gas. We can't get gas where I am. For comparison, at this week's engergy prices (1/9/04) with propane at $1.58 per gallon, natural gas at $9.41 MCF, electricity at .127 cents per KWH, and heating oil at $1.35 per gallon, this is the cost to heat the same house (fictional house for comparison with average efficiency) Electric heat = $2,531, propane = $1,463, heating oil = $829, and natural gas = $755. As you can see, propane is almost double the cost of oil. Natual gas is the best buy, not counting wood heat. A comment on reliability. I have two houses, side by side. I heat with oil and wood, depending on how cold it is or what mood I'm in. Oil hot-air furnace in my main house is 14 years old and is, more-or-less, a piece of crap. Oil hot-air furnace in the other was manufactured 1948, i.e. 56 years old and still works fine. Regardless of all the hype I hear, it's just as effecient as my newer one. It is obvious to see, however, when servicing these units, the old furnace is built much better. There's a engergy comparison calculator at:
http://www.consumersenergy.com/welcome.htm?./apps/GasValue/index.asp?SS1ID=230

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buickanddeere

01-11-2004 11:39:03

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Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like o in reply to jdemaris, 01-11-2004 06:49:50

How much are you paying a Kw for power. That sounds awlful steep. Did you factor 100% efficiency electrical and 75% fossil?

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jdemaris

01-11-2004 18:35:42

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Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would li in reply to buickanddeere, 01-11-2004 11:39:03

We're paying a little over 12 cents per KWH with the Niagra Mohwwk Power Company which is a little below the average State price. There are some areas a few miles from me that get cheaper power thanks to the REA which is kind of a joke - anachronism. I think most States in the US have Websites that post average prices for utilities. New York's is at: Link As far as calculating - I didn't do the calulating - that's why I posted the link to the Website that did. When you refer to electric heat as 100% efficient, I hope you mean only in regard to it's transfer from line-current to heat. Start to finish, it's not particularly efficient since most of it in the Northeast is made from buring coal, old tires, and oil. But, just looking at for its ability to utilize the rapid movement of electrons and heat a house, 25% either way doesn't make much of a difference. I've converted houses ad naseum from electric heat to one of the cheaper alternatives; usually the heat cost is cut to a third or a quarter. If natural gas was available, it would be the best buy at today's prices, but we can't get it in my area. Down-side to gas is you can't buy it when prices are down and save it for the later heating season, like can be done with oil or propane. I usully buy 1500 gallons when it hits a low in Spring, and use it for heat and tractor fuel. Wood heat is still, by far, the best energy source if a person has access to it. If you buy it all, split and delivered, it's not so cheap. On my 90 acres, I hardly ever have to cut a good tree. Get all I need just from dead and/or down trees - but even so it's labor intensive. As far as your comments about low fire temp, unburned gasses, etc. with wood. Yeah it happens, usually when a stove is too big for the area it's heating. Load it full in hopes of burning all night, then turn the damper way down, and it smolders - and a lot of energy is wasted up the chimney or clings to it as creosote. Put up with a smaller stove, burn it hot, and it's fine. There was some experimentation with catylitic stoves to raise efficiency and meet Federal emmision standards, but it kind of went over like a "fart in church." Most new stoves today can meet the standards with other methods - but either way it's a modest improvement. On the subject of a smoldering fire, people have run their cars and tractors on that principle with trash or firewood. Called a "collector" system. I'd like to build one sometime.

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buickanddeere

01-11-2004 20:44:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, woul in reply to jdemaris, 01-11-2004 18:35:42

The numbers here are 8.7 Canadian "peso" cents per Kw. I thought ours was expensive vs 15.5 cents converted; ouch. LP is 55 cents per litre or $2.08 an US gallon. No bargain here on LP and it makes electricity look good. Forced air prefered however, those baseboards can be dangerous and ducts are needed for airconditioning anyways. Natural gas isn't delivered in the area but ironically is underground here near the salt deposits. Furnace oil is 65 cents/litre delivered or $2.46 per US gallon. Has to be a modern high effiency unit and a new installation or replaement for a broken down electrical system to really pay. Coal is $285/ton dumped at the door. Going to get a load if I ever get the fireplace insert converted to grates.

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jdemaris

01-12-2004 05:10:01

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, in reply to buickanddeere, 01-11-2004 20:44:46

We're [paying $2.30 a gallon for propane since we only use it for cooking gas and have a small tank. I found a place that agreed to sell it to me for $1.29 per gallon if I buy my own 500 gallon tank. I've been thinking about doing it along with installing three or four non-vented 30K BTU heaters - for backup. They're just about 100% efficient. As far as heating oil goes, I just bought 500 gallons a few days ago at $1.35 and that's the highest I ever paid. Taxed, at the pump (A.K.A. diesel) is $1.79. Sometimes, in the spring, Agway offers deals if you prepay, for farm-fueloil. Last year they offered oil for 75 cents per gallon - I should have bought it. Next year (I think) I'm going to install an outdoor wood boiler. I'm still researching it a bit, though - they seem to be quite inefficient. Plus side is you can heat several buildings with one fire and also heat the domestic hot water. What I don't like, besides the initial price, it that it needs electricity to run.

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Willy-N

01-11-2004 10:16:31

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Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like o in reply to jdemaris, 01-11-2004 06:49:50

After reading those costs I love my wood stove even more. Been using it to heat 100 % for allmost 17 years no maintnance at all except cleaning the stack. Spent about 1,200.00 for the stove and stack and installed it myself. Wood cost per year is 270.00 deliverd approx 3-4 split cords of wood for the whole year. 1,680 sq ft house temps drop to -15 below in the winter and it lasts for about 5-6 months here in Eastern Washington. I do have a well insulated house to. Mark H.

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buickanddeere

01-11-2004 13:23:48

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Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would li in reply to Willy-N, 01-11-2004 10:16:31

Speaking of efficiency. There are wood stoves then there are wood stoves. Some would be better buring coal rather than wood. Many designs loose the combustionable wood gases up the stack at the best of times. Worse yet the wood burning applicance packed 101% full and the draft dampers almost totaly closed. In an attempt to limit the number of fuel loadings a day. Those users tend to have cold flues clogged with condensing gases that should have been burned(creosote). Then a nasty chimmney fire.

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Willy-N

01-11-2004 16:04:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, woul in reply to buickanddeere, 01-11-2004 13:23:48

Mine has a re/burner for the gases and has a very high efficiency rating and uses outside air for the burn. I run mine open and with just a little wood in it till night then I fill the hot box and shut it down. Mark H.

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buickanddeere

01-11-2004 18:13:30

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, in reply to Willy-N, 01-11-2004 16:04:45

What make, maybe they may have a fireplace insert that would work here?

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Willy-N

01-11-2004 20:46:59

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnac in reply to buickanddeere, 01-11-2004 18:13:30

It is a Brass Flame and was Mobil Home aproved. It is the Certified Pedistal Model with a air intake thru the floor. Brass Flame Stove Company (503-476-5238)

Mark H.

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kyhayman

01-11-2004 06:44:01

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

Really not sure in your situation but two years ago I had to relace my furnace. I bought this house in 1998 and it had am 8 yr old 67% eff pulse gas furnace. My heat and air man told me that I needed to replace in 98. Choices were 80-90 efficiency. I went with the 80% pulse gas on propane). I have to use 600g per year to not have to pay rent on my tank and with 90% I was afraid I wouldnt use that much (only using between 630 and 670 now).

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T_Bone

01-11-2004 03:47:56

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Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like opini in reply to KURT (mi), 01-11-2004 03:23:09

Hi Kurt,

My question is why you would want to replace it now? Even the cheapy furnace heat exchangers will last 15yrs without any problem. Very seldom does a heat exchanger crack before 10yrs. Can it? sure but rare.

If it does need replacing then more info is need before a reasonable answer can be told. LP or natural? Your utility bill cost for the past 5yrs or so? Gas HW heater?

T_Bone

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Jay

01-11-2004 11:04:39

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Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would like o in reply to T_Bone, 01-11-2004 03:47:56

I haven't had any problems with high efficiency furnaces. Installation or maintenance is the culprit, not the furnaces themselves.

I can't say all, but most conventional type furnaces now carry a life-time heat exchanger warranty for residential use.

Most furnaces will go 20+ years with no problems that routine maintenance won't take care of.

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jdemaris

01-12-2004 05:52:12

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Re: Re: Re: OT: high efficiency furnaces, would li in reply to Jay, 01-11-2004 11:04:39

My experience with "lifetime warranty" on heat exchangers is - it's often worthless. Just like many other warranties are. Worked on three oil hot-air furnaces recently, all under 10 years old and all with holes burnt through the heat-exchanger. Lifetime warranty on them all, none honored. Company says - warranty only good if - first you pay for a new heat exchanger, then have an authorized tech. guy install it, then . . . pay him of course - then pay to ship the old/bad exchanger back to factory - and then their own experts will decide if they should honor the warranty. If they decide the furnace wasn't serviced enough, or properly - by their own criteria, NO warranty. So, in an oil furnace, if you have it serviced every year, and sometime in the interim, the el-cheapo fiber liner in the chamber falls apart, they'll say it wasn't serviced enough. And, even if they do honor it - by the time you've paid for all the service work you could of almost paid for a brand new, complete furnace.

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