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No1 Diesel fuel.

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Huw from West W

01-07-2004 11:23:24

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Is No1 diesel fuel similar to kerosene. Here in the UK we only have one grade of diesel fuel to use in our tractors it is similar to the american No2 diesel fuel i was wondering if i could use kerosene if we get some real cold weather here.

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buickanddeere

01-08-2004 04:40:39

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

The manual went with the New Holland skid steer when we traded it so I can't quote exact numbers. The Yanmar engine instructions stated that gasoline, yes gasoline could be blended with the diesel at 20% at 0 degrees F. Sounds dicey but a whole different situation than a empty diesel machine being filled with gasoline on a hot day.

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Greywolf

01-08-2004 04:46:31

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Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to buickanddeere, 01-08-2004 04:40:39

Everyone says it's a no no. Haven't done it myself. But I do know of many many long haul truckers that have done it and never had any problems short or long range.

Never went to that high of blend tho. 1 - 5 gallons per 120 gallon tank is all I've ever heard of to clear up a gelled tank.

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paul

01-08-2004 12:29:10

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Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Greywolf, 01-08-2004 04:46:31

Yea, it's one of those things I've never ever heard _recommended_ but, ahm, it might work if you don't blow up....

A good anti-gel product is much better, and pretty easy to get here in the northern USA anyhow - I would sure go with that than risk a bad quick problem or some premature engine repairs on the pump, block, or head....

Surprised it would be in a manual! And I too think the rate would be much lower.

--->Paul

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T_Bone

01-08-2004 13:15:15

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to paul, 01-08-2004 12:29:10

Hi B&D,

VW recomends 20% gasoline to #2d for a winter blend. I ran that in my VW diesel for over 60k miles until I found Power Service white bottle, made me run at 52mpg continously. I then quit mixing gas in as it got lower fuel mileage. I got 300k miles out of my rebuild and I can't expect more than that.

T_Bone

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john

01-07-2004 20:13:48

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

YES you can. I work for a major truck stop in the US and we pre mix our fuel in the tanks.
While we mix anti gel for above -10 if it gets colder than this the anti gel is not good enough so we mix 20% kerosene or no1 diesel to the tanks.

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Larry NE IL

01-07-2004 19:20:34

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

If you are in an area that needs #1 due to weather, the fuel stations and your dealer if you store it, change over in the fall, automatically unless you tell them not to.
Even with using older stored #2 in my excavating machines here in the Chicago area, I've never experienced jelling unless the temp. was below about 10 deg. F (high temp. of the day) for a few days straight. Larry

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kTom

01-07-2004 16:43:32

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

Rather than mixing in kerosene, just put in some DFA (Diesel Fuel Additive). Shell makes a good one and so does APS. TSC, Walmart, Auto Zone, and almost everyone sells it. follow the directions. It will add lubricity, prevent gelling, reduce condensation, help clean fuel tank & lines, and add up to 6 points to the Cetane rating. I use it in every drop of diesel that I burn, year round. NEVER had to work on an injection pump yet.

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ted

01-07-2004 16:19:06

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

You can also use antigel instead of mixing up some #1.

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Greywolf

01-08-2004 04:43:22

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Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to ted, 01-07-2004 16:19:06

The anti gel works. But to be completely effective the mix has to take place at a temp of around 40 degrees to be completely effective.

Batch mixing in the vehicle tank when it's -15 doesn't work the best.

tougher with the pickups but the best solution is a hot water heater in the fuel tank itself. No need for a #1 mix at all then. Drawback is you better have a heated shop to park in when you shut down for the night or keep the tank volume low and do a blend. Go back to straight 2 after you've warmed up.

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Alvin n Ms.

01-07-2004 12:58:17

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

We also use no#2 diesel. Back years ago all the Pure Oil truck stops offered #1 and #2, with #1 costing about 5 cents a gallon more, so the difference between #1 and #2 is a nichol a gallon. As far kerosene, it has a different flashpoint (temperture at which fuel exsplodes)so don't use it in any diesels that I know about, however way back then (40s & 50s)we used kerosene in John Deeres, Farmalls, and other tractors that were designed for gas or kerosene. They started on gas to normal temp. then switch over to kerosene. If you switch too early kerosene could squeeze past the rings and thin out the crankcase oil. alvinnms

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Van

01-07-2004 15:35:29

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Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Alvin n Ms., 01-07-2004 12:58:17

Alvin,
#1 diesel is available in northern Arkansas on up, you just cant get it farther south I guess as its not needed. I never use it unless I am bound for the Dakotas or such in the winter.
Van

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jed

01-07-2004 12:40:42

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Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Huw from West Wales., 01-07-2004 11:23:24

Hi, I run a petroleum testing lab here in the USA. #1 diesel is essentially a #2 fuel with kerosene in it. The flash is lower and the distilltion is lighter. dilluting with kero is a common practise and should cause you no problems.
A 40% dillution should be no problem at all.

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Duane(Pa)

01-07-2004 12:51:11

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Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to jed, 01-07-2004 12:40:42

Jed, how does Jet-A compare to kerosene?

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buickanddeere

01-07-2004 13:56:46

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Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Duane(Pa), 01-07-2004 12:51:11

Jet A is kerosene. Jet A-1 has an pour point even colder. Military JP4 pretty much the same. JP5 has an anti-static additive doped JP4. Jet B is straight cut gasoline/kerosene/very light oils right off the refinery distilation tower. Pretty much the tractor "Power Fuel" of the 40-50's.

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Van

01-07-2004 15:33:34

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to buickanddeere, 01-07-2004 13:56:46

JP-4 and JP-5 are a thing of the past in the military, they are in the process of converting everybody to JP-8 which has more anti static additives and a even higher flashpoint. Basically the same just a little higher viscosity and also made less likely to jell. Van

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buickanddeere

01-07-2004 17:31:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Van, 01-07-2004 15:33:34

Things have progressed since I was at the refinery in 89. How about JP6, anyone still using it as both turbine and reciprocating fuel in place of #1 & #2 fuel oil? The old SR-71 that was retired when the new Aurora went into full service. What did they fuel it with? The JP equivalent of #4 fuel oil?

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Kelly C

01-08-2004 05:34:35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to buickanddeere, 01-07-2004 17:31:04

the new Aurora went into full service

Huh? Please tell? I must have missed this.

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buickanddeere

01-08-2004 05:52:38

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Kelly C, 01-08-2004 05:34:35

Yes for several years. Why do you think the SR-71/A-12 was put out to pasture except for a Nasa reasearch plane. SR-71's could have been built faster and higher even back in the early 60's but the payloads of the time had to fly lower and slower than now. Higher,faster & stealthier. Titanium & Beryllium airframe with engines run at jets at low level/speed, ram/scram jet at high alititude and maybe rocket with on board O2 for sub orbital hops. An X-33 type of machine. Put lots of bucks in contractor pockets when the SR-71 was still good enough. The research will rub off onto the next generation shuttle however.

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Van

01-07-2004 21:51:56

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to buickanddeere, 01-07-2004 17:31:04

SR-71 fuel was JP-7 and was thinner so it wouldn't gel at high altitude and fail to flow.
When I worked on KC-10 tankers we used a isolation valve to seperate the center wing tank from the rest of the aircraft, the tank would be drained and purged of JP-8 and the valve closed and the switch pinned, the tank was then fueled with the 7, that fuel we would give to the SR-71. If by chance some bonehead would pull the pin and move the switch the whole process would have to be repeated and the fuel in the tank would just be mixed back with the JP-8 and called 8. We wound not take any chance of the SR-71's getting the wrong gas, lost lives and aircraft would be the result. Van

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norbert kanzl

01-07-2004 14:51:27

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to buickanddeere, 01-07-2004 13:56:46

Do not use kersone. Mix diesel with kersone depending on the temperature. The colder it gets the more kersone up to 40% kersone. Diesel fuel has better lubricating qualties if you use strait kersone you will ruin your fuel injection pump

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T_Bone

01-07-2004 15:52:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to norbert kanzl, 01-07-2004 14:51:27

Hi Huw,

Use 2% vegetable oil mixed with #1 diesel to equal the lubericating properties of #2D (USA fuel standards). This would keep injector and pump wear to a minimum.

Raw Rapeseed oil (SVO) has a good btu content along with a couple University studys that mixed raw vegetable oil upto 50% without any harm to the engine. Over 50% SVO then injector fouling becomes a problem along with stuck rings.

You might also want to look into mixing "cleaned" used motor oil back into your diesel if using kero.

Do a google search and read until your hearts content on using vegetable oil. Use caution tho at any mix over 25% SVO/#2D.

T_Bone

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gardener

01-08-2004 18:50:31

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to T_Bone, 01-07-2004 15:52:46

I have saved a drum of diesel engine oil mixed with hydraulic oil from my farm tractors. Would this be ok to mix in at 2-5% with my diesel fuel for my tractors?
I plan to build a vegoil system this year or after i use up my used oil.
That's a whole new challenge....to preheat compactly the SVO on aircooled diesels, or have 1 tank for each fuel.
While i'm at it, i plan to visit the company locally who has a demonstration of a 12hp generator running on hydrogen gas ...produced by several containers of saltwater and a catalyst. A video shows it running 1-2 hrs.

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Ray,IN

01-07-2004 20:23:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to T_Bone, 01-07-2004 15:52:46

Hi TBone, I used to think burning motor oil was a no-no because of the additives. Well, I now know better. Some years ago Cummins engine used to have a setup to slowly burn motor oil as you drove, with a tank of new oil replacing the burned. I don't know how it ever turned out though. Back to the topic, mixing kero with diesel is common and approved by most diesel engine mfgrs in cold weather up to a maximim ratio, most say 10/1 diesel to kero.

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T_Bone

01-08-2004 04:44:49

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to Ray,IN, 01-07-2004 20:23:21

Hi Ray,

As far as I know Cummins still uses that oil system on the OTR rigs. I was looking at a add on kit but dang expensive so I just add my own to my tank. At 1% them additives are not going to hurt a thing but you sure can't convience people of that.

My son worked for a sod company and all engine oil was dumped back into the fuel tanks with no precleaning and no care of how much was mixed at one time. Some 400 picecs of diesel eqpt and no problems at all in 8yrs he was there and they had been doing that for some time before he got there. Atleast I preclean mine.

T_Bone

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Alvin n Ms.

01-08-2004 07:28:38

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fuel. in reply to T_Bone, 01-08-2004 04:44:49

A lower flash point means the compressed fuel could explode before the piston gets to top dead center, so I would go with the mfgs reccomendation with newer engines, and not use over 10% kerosene and other additives on older out of warranty engines. alvinnms

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T_Bone

01-08-2004 11:01:00

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel fue in reply to Alvin n Ms., 01-08-2004 07:28:38

Hi alvin,

Adding motor oil will increase the flash point slightly.

ASTM minimum flash point spec's: #1D=100f, #2D=100f, #4 to #5 fuel oil =130f

T_Bone

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Alvin n Ms.

01-08-2004 14:26:33

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Diesel in reply to T_Bone, 01-08-2004 11:01:00

Thanks T Bone. I drove for an outfit that had a setup on the trucks to continuously take oil from the engine and filter it into the fuel tank, but I didn't know it raised the flash point. They started in 1970 and still do. The oil and filters are only changed between 30 and 40 thousand miles, so the new oil that is added probably helps. alvinnms

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buickanddeere

01-09-2004 05:27:40

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No1 Di in reply to Alvin n Ms., 01-08-2004 14:26:33

Flash point isn't that important, infact you raised the cetane rating making the fuel easier to light. It's not a gasoline engine where detonation is a concern. A diesel gets fuel injected when combustion is supposed to start.

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