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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

To polarize or not to polarize??

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Mark

01-03-2004 14:01:26




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Hi All,

My IH504 voltage regulator died so I installed a new one and it is now registering a battery charge so it looks like I am OK according to my multimeter.

Here is the question: My manual says I need to polarize the generator first or I can screw it up. The guy at NAPA says I only have to polarize if it is a positive ground vehicle, which it isn't. He says the voltage regulator is built for a negative ground vehicle and that I shouldn't polarize.

Please tell me what I should do. As of now it was charging fine for the 15 minutes I ran it.

Thanks.

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Sid

01-03-2004 20:52:03




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 Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to Mark, 01-03-2004 14:01:26  
I guess I am lucky over the years I have replaced a couple of generators and three or four regulators. just took the old ones off and put new one back on. I replaced the regulator on my combine three years ago it wouldn't charge my neighbors says did you polarize it? I says what you mean? Like I say lucky in some ways I guess.



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Bus Driver

01-03-2004 15:42:52




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 Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to Mark, 01-03-2004 14:01:26  
Mark, trust your manual. Glad that things are working well with your system. Not sure why one would read the manual and then not follow the advice given therein.



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JD Kid

01-03-2004 15:41:43




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 Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to Mark, 01-03-2004 14:01:26  
i agree with them. i alsowant to know if you got any pictures of it because i have a IH 504 and would like to see another one of these machines. my tractor is already in the pictures section. if you with to see it look under the search "brett" and it should be there with my JD A, Case CC and i think my Oliver 60 RC



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Jon H

01-03-2004 14:29:48




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 Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to Mark, 01-03-2004 14:01:26  
This is a common misunderstanding,what is polarized is the generator,not the regulator. A generator retains a slight magnetic charge in the iron field shoes. This retained magnetic charge in the field shoes is what tells a generator to charge either pos or neg ground. The reason they tell you to polarize the GENERATOR after working on the generator or regulator is that disturbing things can cause the polarity to reverse itself which is a disaster for the generator and regulator.
In your case,the fact that it charges correctly means that the generator polarity luckily did not change and all is well.

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RAB

01-03-2004 14:25:58




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 Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to Mark, 01-03-2004 14:01:26  
It will or it won't work. Yours does. So it's OK.
All polarising does is magnetise the permanent magnets in the correct polarity by creating an electomagnet for a moment - bit like a normal electromagnet (scrapyard crane). The crane has a soft iron core so when you turn off the currecnt it lets go 'cos the soft iron immediately loses nearly all it's magnetism. In the generator the 'core' is steel and so retains enough magnetism to self excite the generator at the next start up. Regards, RAB

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Jeff

01-03-2004 15:05:06




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 Re: Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to RAB, 01-03-2004 14:25:58  
this has been asked on here probably a million times but here is one more. When I hook the tach up to my Oliver1800 it won't register them and when I flip the switch for volts it goes negative. I am thinking the geberator needs repolarizing but can't remember if you use the field or aarmature wire and what you do to it. Any suggestions?



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ajax implement

01-03-2004 18:13:52




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 Re: Re: Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to Jeff, 01-03-2004 15:05:06  
Your 1800 Oliver is a positive ground system and the Delco regulator should have Pos marked on it. You have an A circuit generator. Ford and some import tractors are B. circuit. They are not polarized the same way. If you need more information, post this on the HPOCA wbe site.



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Alvin n Ms.

01-04-2004 08:46:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: To polarize or not to polarize?? in reply to ajax implement, 01-03-2004 18:13:52  
Did you know that your generator can deliver current for either a positive or a negative ground system? Well, it can. And you can make it work in either mode. But, if yours produces current with the wrong polarity, you might have to make costly repairs. A generator produces current by passing conductors (the armature windings) through a magnetic field. The magnetic field is produced by electromagnets that surround the armature. Basically, the field portion of your generator consists of copper windings around iron core, often referred to as the pole shoes.

The voltage and current delivered by your generator is determined by the strength of the magnetic field and the speed at which the generator is running. But, the polarity of the current is determined by the polarity of the pole shoes, or the direction of the magnetic flux or field, which is determined by the direction of current through the field windings.

OK, so you install a generator and take great care to connect the wires properly so you won't burn out your ammeter or cutout relay. What could go wrong if the wires are hooked up right?

Plenty! When you start your engine, the generator will start delivering current. Since the generator is still isolated from the electrical system by the voltage regulator or cutout relay at this point, it will start producing current based on the polarity of the pole shoes. As soon as it begins producing current, some of that current will be directed to the field windings to strengthen the magnetic flux.

According to John Deere's Fundamentals of Service manual manual, if the generator polarity is reversed, the generator will build up voltage and close the cutout relay points. This put the generator in series with the battery, and their voltages are added together. This high voltage across the points (about twice the battery voltage) can cause high current and enough heat to weld the points together.

This damage does not happen immediately. The instant the points close, the voltage is about the same on both sides of the relay coil, so very little current flows, and spring tension reopens the points. But, generator voltage will again close the points, and the cycle will repeat at a rapid rate. Heat and arcing will finally weld the points together.

When the points weld, the battery and generator are connected at all times. The low resistance of the generator allows the battery to continue to discharge through the generator. The high current can create enough heat to burn the armature.

How do you control the polarity of the pole shoes? The polarity is determined by the direction of the last current through the field windings. Since even a very small current can polarize the shoes, never assume the generator is properly polarized. You must polarize the generator every time it is disconnected or serviced.

To polarize the generator, simply make a short jumper wire to short between the battery (b or bat) and generator (g or gen) lugs on the cutout relay or voltage regulator. Only a split-second or a spark is required, so simply tap your jumper wire onto the lugs and pull them right back off.

Reference: John Deere Fundamentals of Service (FOS): Electrical Systems, Fifth Edition. 1984. Chapter 4, Charging Systems. John Deere Service Training, Dept F, John Deere Road, Moline, IL 61265

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RAB

01-04-2004 10:09:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To polarize or not to polarize in reply to Alvin n Ms., 01-04-2004 08:46:40  
Alvin, I understand your comments on polarisation, if your post was directed at my reply. I simply answered the question. On this occasion he got it right, by the fact that he said it was charging his battery, after checking by ammeter and multimeter. There are only two field polarities and he was lucky enough it had not changed. My reply indicated there was no point in doing what patently did not need doing, after he had already run it and found it OK. If he had followed the book instructions he would not have been posting and frankly the time taken to flash the windings would not have been longer to do than fire up the computer and make a post in the first place
Regards,RAB

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