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O.T. Mad Cow

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Doug

12-31-2003 06:59:47




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I guess I was more than a little surprised to find out that previous to now, "downer cows" were allowed into the human food chain. I don't know much about the subject but I know there are a lot of cattle people out here. What are your thoughts and experiences with sick cattle. Don't worry, I'm no activist or trying to start a quarrel, just looking for an education.




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Heat Houser

01-01-2004 16:57:52




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
I wonder how safe our cattle feed supplies are.
The truckers who haul the stuff will haul blood meal, meat meal, soybean meal, etc. Suppose they haul a load of bovine sourced meat/blood meal which is OK to feed to hogs and then haul a load of soybean meal for cattle feed. Many of these trailers are auger type and never achieve 100% clean out. Looks like we could have cross contamination since we will be feeding some bovine (cattle) residue to cattle

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Dick in Ore.

12-31-2003 21:41:43




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
The recent Mad Cow outbreak has been an eye-opener for the the public, be it good or bad.. I'm sure the majority of comsumers would have never imagined downer cows were used for human consumptuon. Since the media was full of the Mad Cow problem, they found out and the phones at the USDA were ringing off the hook. So to answer the concerns of the public, they banned the use of downer cattle for human consumption..

What did we find out from the Mad Cow scare?

We found out that most of our fast food burger restaurants will not use meat from downed cattle.

We found out that the meat from these downer cows is used for hamburger we buy in our supermarkets, and that includes the more expensive grinds of hamburger.

We found out that just because an animal is "suspected" of have a disease and tissue samples are sent to a lab for testing,, that meat is still introduced into the food chain, "before" the results of the test are back.. That was the biggest suprise of all of this learning experience. But,, they think this may be changing in the near future.. Kind of makes sense,doesn't it?

Now everyone knows that there are small slaughterhouses that "specialize" in culled dairy cattle, downed cows and all. We now know what they slaughter and where that meat goes. And, how the meat from one cow can contaminate tons of meat that is sent all over the western states even Hawaii and Guam.

Now when a choice steer or cow falls down in an overcrowed trailer and gets trampled for hours on it's way to slaughter, and can't get up, well, it won't be dragged into the kill floor for slaughter.

A few years ago in Washington State, a huge slaughterhouse got caught on tape skining cattle while still alive. One of those groups like PETA heard about this and got one of the employees to set up a secret video camera on the kill floor to document what was going on. Several employees had already quit because of the cruelty that was going on there. Once the tape was made, it made it's way to the nightly news, then the phones started to ring. This was during the big Ecoli scare and employees were complaining that managment was always speeding up the chains and they couldn't keep up and do a good job.. All the while this was happening under the watchful eye of the FSIS, Food Safety Inspection Service of the USDA..

So,, for anyone paying attention to the past week of events,, it has been a real education to say the least.

Dick

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Paul in Mich

01-01-2004 13:30:47




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 Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Dick in Ore., 12-31-2003 21:41:43  
Dick, You had me in the palm of your hand right up to the point to where I read PETA. I believe nothing whatsoever what they say, because they are not about truth, they are about their own agenda no matter how they have to manipulate to that end. "Nutcracker Suite" should say it all as far as PETA is concerned. That is not to say that Mad Cow disease is not a serious issue, because it is, but any data PETA offers is totally invalid because it isnt taken from any credible scientific source.

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Dick in Ore.

01-01-2004 22:02:03




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 Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Paul in Mich, 01-01-2004 13:30:47  
Paul,

Thanks for your response. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. In reference the story about the slaughterhouse dilema.
If my memory serves me correctly. There was a high percentage of employee turn over at this plant, somewhere over 50%. I guess they just couldn't take the grusome work day after day and some employees were disgusted with the way the operation was being ran. With managment pushing the kill floor crews to work faster, things were happening on the kill floor that, in anybodys book would not be correct, unless of course you were managment.
Apparently an employee contacted someone who they thought would care about the problems. The employees must have thought, what better group to contact but an animal rights group for something like this. Afer all, managment only wanted more production and complaining to them would be like talking to the wall. So apparently when the employees were asked to plant a camera on the kill floor and get some proof, the media was ready to listen, even if was from an animal rights group. The film footage showed it all and it was very evident that what the employees stated was true. As I remember no credit was given to the activist group who set the whole thing up, but with the video being shown on the nightly news, the public was outraged and rightly so. What this did, was bring to light that what was going on in that plant was not only cruel but didn't allow the workers to do a good job. We all know that when you have to work too fast, you can't do a good job. As I mentioned earlier, this happened during the big ECOLI scare. This was when feces from the animal was left on the meat and then infected the meat with ECOLI. This whole thing kind of showed that even under the FSIS watchful eye, production was more important than public health.
I'm not saying I agree with the stand of any animal rights group but when it comes to the health and safety of the consumer, this time they may have been right. And, none of us can say it's right to actually rip the hide off of an animal while it's still alive, even those who work on a kill floor everyday.

Dick

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dhermesc

01-02-2004 06:17:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Dick in Ore., 01-01-2004 22:02:03  
Where was USDA in that plant? I worked at IBP and more then once saw the entire place shut down so everyone could wash their equipment and change frocks because somebody got caught in the bathroom wiht their equipment on, let alone sh** being on the meat.

As for skinning cows alive I have some serious doubts about that, an animal kicking and twisting is extremely dangerous, let alone while you're attempting to skin it. Even if you accomplished it would be so much slower then skinning a properly "knocked" cow the second or two you gained would be lost in the extra time it to skin it.

Most of the problems you described sounds like stuff that happens as little plants with 20 or 30 employees. The big guys just don't screw with downer cows. At IBP there is no way a partially paralized cow would have made it into the holding pens, let alone into the plant. Cows with obvious problems (limps, lumps and even a bad eye) just don't make in, I always thought these ended up in dog food. A farmer selling such an animal usually is lucky to get 1/10 the price of a healthy animal. Even the little mom and pop processing plants won't mess with these (although I am surprised they will do deer). The mid range speciality plants must be getting away with murder to have these practises. Their "natural" products get you sick the old fasion way.

As for 50% turnover, I know IBP managed about 150% turnover every year, its hard, back breaking labor for low pay. When I was hired in 1986 I started with 30 people, three months later only 5 remained, a year later I was the only one. That was the average hiring every week in a plant of about a thousand employees.

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Shane

01-01-2004 08:06:57




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 Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Dick in Ore., 12-31-2003 21:41:43  
We also learned that when a business starts to get profitable the government steps in and forces the price back down. Cattle prices go up, mad cow incident comes out and prices go down, taking the price of corn with it.



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O. Stone

01-01-2004 10:16:33




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 Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Shane, 01-01-2004 08:06:57  
Yea , that's it .....



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Mike (WA)

01-01-2004 08:30:17




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 Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Shane, 01-01-2004 08:06:57  
Guess I'm not quite enough of a conspiracy theorist to believe there was any link. Cattle people I've talked to have said the high prices were a combination of the normal cattle cycle, enganced by widespread interest in the Atkins diet (that's the one that now requires me to buy my wife the 16 oz. prime rib (23 bucks) rather than the 8 oz. (15 bucks), and still she gets skinny. Buy I'm not complainin').

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kyhayman

12-31-2003 19:08:05




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
I, too was surprised about the downer cows. While I have been in the cattle business for several years and am in the midst of the largest eastern US cattle area we have a dearth of commercial packing plants. All of the auction markets that I have traded with clearly post signs "No Sick or Down Animals Accepted'. If I have one that gets sick or injured I treat her until she gets better, dies, or I cant see that I'm helping her (and put her down). 'Dog food plant' charges to pick up but our county government has contracted with them for dead animal pick up and disposal. Currently they pay $12,000 per year but that includes road kills of wildlife.

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Rauville

12-31-2003 17:10:36




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Most of the time "Downer Cattle" will be in better condition than some of the old cancer eye culls that are going through the kill line. If you check the antemortum pens at any packing plant (the "downers" will be in pens by themselves so they don't get stepped on) there are any number of animals that are in poorer pysical condition than most of the "downers".
The bad part about banning "downers" from the food chain, is that these were the animals that were being tested for BSE. Now, we never will know what the extant of the problem was, or will be! Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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gene

12-31-2003 15:51:32




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
i used to raise cattle until a few yrs ago when i got out of the cattle business. what we would do with the cattle that was injured was to take it to the locker an have it all ground up into hamburger, even a cow home grown is better hamburger then you can get in the supermarket i think. we never sold or burchured a sick cow, if they died bury them. gene



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Paul in Mich

12-31-2003 14:06:29




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Most "Downer cows" are not sick cows but may be lame due to close quarters. I remember my cousin selling off a herd of what is considered "Downer cows" because he installed a feeding system that was augur driven and somehow the mesh guard got raised, supposedly by one of the cows, and about 30 head had their tongues severed by the moving augur. That is not to say that some "downer cows" are not sick as I'm sure that there are some sicknesses that are allowable. Certainly Mad Cow is not one of the allowable sicknesses.

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David

12-31-2003 11:10:10




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
We background a few hundred head of cattle each year. If we have one that gets sick we just doctor it until it dies, then bury it. If we have one that breaks it leg, or some how gets crippled, thats the one WE eat. We never take any junk cattle to town.



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Garry

12-31-2003 10:14:42




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Know what they call a cow with no legs-ground beef



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john

12-31-2003 10:11:19




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Well I have never seen and do not see a problem with sending a cull cow to the sale barn.
Now downer cows I may have to rethink. It has all ways been a practice to send live downers to the packers and any one that does not know that does not know the dairy bussiness. The thing is that I would say there is a greater percentage of dairy downers than beef. And while it would be great to say no to all downers trying to get a dairyman to bury a downer because of a broke leg to save the beef industry may be hard to do.

The problem I have with this whole Mad Cow thing is every one I have seen on TV has been a dairy cow. Hmmmmm mmm...

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T-Bone

12-31-2003 09:41:06




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
I wouldn't take/send something to slaughter that I wouldn't want to eat. Farming is tough, but if means making a buck by introducing sick downer cows into the food chain, I'm not going to do it. I've got a backhoe that takes good care of them. I thought downer cows were eliminated from the food chain 20 years ago.



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KX

12-31-2003 07:57:48




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
It is better to take a down animal to the dog food plant than shooting it. Obviously, anyone that would shoot a downer is not making a living off cattle. At least you can get something for it. Bologna and McDolands meat are probably comparable in quality. I love bologna. PETA, (people eating tasty animals).



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kraigWY hmmmmmmm

12-31-2003 07:49:58




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Depends if I knew why it died. If I didn't know I would bury it. If I shot it cause I got tired of chasing it cause it was a fence jumper, I'd eat it and enjoy every minute of it. Having said that I love baloney, hot dogs, and I really don't care how its made. If it taste good, I'm gonna eat it. Cow, pig, chicken, or what have you. Got to die of something. I love fried chicken. But I've seen chickens eat things that a coyote would stick his nose at. I'm gonna die someday anyway, so I'm gonna enjoy life, eating what taste good, smoking, or whatever.

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Mike (WA)

12-31-2003 08:19:56




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 Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to kraigWY hmmmmmmm, 12-31-2003 07:49:58  
Of course, you never could take dead animals to the plant to be processed for meat- animal had to be alive. Majority of downers are physical injuries, mostly dairy cows, either in calving, or doing the "splits" on slick concrete. IMHO, its probably for the best to quit putting these animals into the food chain, once and for all- of course we don't want the sick ones, and even the injured ones become fevered after a couple of days, leading to other possible problems.

But here's a question- if they test downers for BSE, which they did in this case, what good does it do if they process and disperse the meat to the four winds before the test results come back? Isn't there an old saying about shutting barn doors that would be especially appropriate here?

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Kennyp

12-31-2003 07:26:02




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Doug, the idea is that, like if a cow breaks a hip, she is still usable for meat. I am a cow man, friends are all cow men, but, I think the time has come to stop it. It is just too much bad publisity and would help the industry if changed.



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Van(WA)

12-31-2003 07:23:38




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
Doug; I have a son that worked for a Major beef processor(over 2000 heads a shift), for five years, , finally quit, couldn't take it anymore. The things that went on there would make you quit buying beef at your local super market!! This plant was federally control with inspectors, but when it comes to production and profit, forget the regulations and get that line moving!!!



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Mark in AB

12-31-2003 07:21:20




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 Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Doug, 12-31-2003 06:59:47  
I wouldn't even dream of butchering or trying to sell a downer animal. I would just shoot it and bury it. Then again I would not butcher an old cull cow for my personal hamburger either. I don't eat anything over 2 years old. But I must admit, I have eaten at mcdonalds, never eaten bologna though, don't want to dream what they grind up for that.



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Homer

12-31-2003 07:39:55




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 Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Mark in AB, 12-31-2003 07:21:20  
mmmmm mm....bologna.



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Rusty Jones

12-31-2003 12:35:14




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 Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Homer, 12-31-2003 07:39:55  
Doug: I thought that back when the U.K. had all of the trouble with feeding animal parts to the cows, mixed into the regular feed, our government said, many times, that the practice doesn't take place here in the U.S.! Now, somebody said that it is done here! What's the real scoop? On another note, a guy here wore a PETA T-shirt to a tractor pull. I thought they'd have to have an escort to get him out of there, until somebody pointed out that it meant: People eating tasty animals! And, one day i went to a garage sale, and after picking out several items, i went to pay for them. On the cashiers table was a sign saying: All proceeds go to PETA. With that, i put the stuff down and left! Those goofy peta jerks aren't getting my money! How do they hold up their pants? With a rope? Maybe raw-hide? Rusty Jones

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rob

12-31-2003 17:51:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Rusty Jones, 12-31-2003 12:35:14  
The practice of feeding meat & bone meal was banned in the U.s. in August 1997.



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Kelly C

12-31-2003 18:12:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to rob, 12-31-2003 17:51:25  
What do they do with it all now?



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Jerry

12-31-2003 14:04:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Rusty Jones, 12-31-2003 12:35:14  
Happy new year guys. Do you know how to call a cow with no legs? Don't bother it can't come anyway.



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Paul Janke

12-31-2003 20:05:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Jerry, 12-31-2003 14:04:42  
What do you call a cow with two legs? Lean beef. What do you call a cow with no legs? Ground beef. What do you call a pig with no legs? Groundhog.



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T-Bone

12-31-2003 15:18:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Jerry, 12-31-2003 14:04:42  
Since we are telling "leg" jokes, What do you say to a one-legged hitch hiker? Hop in! What do you say to a hitch hiker with no legs? Need a lift?



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Paul in Mich

12-31-2003 15:49:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to T-Bone, 12-31-2003 15:18:05  
The same hitch-hiker who needed a lift lost a major lawsuit because he didnt have a leg to stand on.



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Dick

12-31-2003 18:30:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Paul in Mich, 12-31-2003 15:49:28  
Can't resist this one since you're talking about this.. What do they call a man on the front proch without any legs or arms? Matt...



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Bill N

12-31-2003 18:54:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Dick, 12-31-2003 18:30:03  
How do you get a one armed "person from another country starting with a P and ending in an oland" out of a tree? Wave to him.



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Mike (WA)

01-01-2004 08:24:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad Cow in reply to Bill N, 12-31-2003 18:54:00  
Neighbor kid: "Can Billy come out to play ball with us?"
Billy's mother: "You know Billy has no arms or legs."
Kid: "It's OK- we need him for second base."



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Dick

01-01-2004 10:40:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: O.T. Mad C in reply to Mike (WA), 01-01-2004 08:24:31  
What do they call a man with no arms and no legs in a swimming pool?

!! BOB!!



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