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Rock/Stone

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JCB

12-28-2003 17:07:26




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After reading the posts about batteries and fueling, I believe that there are some intelligent people on this board. My question then is: What causes rock to continue to rise to the surface? In this area of Minnesota, even if the land has been farmed and the rocks harvested for over a 100 years, each spring before planting, you will be out in the field "picking rock". Worse yet, just hope someone before you has not gone through the trouble and expense of digging a hole and burying a rock pile. I need a better explaination than it is caused by the frost. - Thanks

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scottupny

12-30-2003 07:28:32




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
Gravity is the problem. Seems like the large rocks would go down due to gravity, right? Logic isn't alway right!

To see how this works, take a jar and put small and large stones or marbles in it. Give it a couple of shakes, and see what happens. The small stones or marbles will go to the bottom and this leaves the larger ones on top. Thus it looks like the larges rocks are moving up, when actually the small ones are moving down because the small ones can travel in the smaller voids.

So enjoy picking your rocks every spring!

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Slowpoke

12-29-2003 22:40:24




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
And what about the boulders and stones in Death Valley in southern California that move on the surface, and leave 100 yard trails behind. Up to 700lbs. Without wind. They haven't figured that out either. Go to Google, Death Valley moving stones.



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Tree Farmer

12-29-2003 19:13:20




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
My 2 cents worth: 1) My 90 year old uncle told me that he was 18 years old before he figured out that his Dad, my Grandad, wasn't raising rocks on the farm. 2)On the serious side, I have been working with this rock/frost/heaving problem for +40 years and am of the opinion that the frozen soil expands, raising the stones, then during spring melt when the soil becomes semi-fluid, a small amount of soil runs into the void left by the raised stone, therby preventing the stone from returning to it's previous location/elevation. Some stones may raise rapidly, some slowly or not at all. The soil type is critical, sandy/gravely soils being less of a problem than the silts and clays. We have solved the frost/heaving problem, by using Dow Blueboard around posts, over waterlines, etc. Our frost goes down +6 feet in severe winters with little or no snowcover. Apologize for being long-winded on this.

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OK-AL

12-29-2003 14:16:47




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
All right, if it's frost that's pushing rocks to the surface then why do I find rocks sitting on top of undisturbed grass? This is out in the middle of a pasture that hasn't been plowed in over ten years. (For 50 years before that it was a wheat field.)

I picked pickup truck loads of rocks out of this field right after it was last plowed. About ten loads out of a 15 acre pasture. Grass was planted and nothing else done to the field for ten years except mowing. No livestock. I find it hard to believe that frost pushes them up, but I don't have a better explaination other than my old neighbor's "the field just grows them!" All of the corner posts in this area used to be made out of rocks stacked in cages of field fence. Many are still standing.

I don't mind them so much now, except when I stub my toe on one! :-0

OK-AL

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greenbeanman in Kanasas

12-29-2003 07:36:38




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
I've farmed in western Kansas and central Kansas.

What are these rock things you are talking about?

If you don't want to fight rocks, move to Kansas.



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720Deere

12-29-2003 06:47:04




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
I believe it is a combination of most all the things mentioned below. The ground freezes around the rock which is a semi-solid object. As the ground freezes, it expands forcing the the solid object to move upward away from the more compacted subsoil. During the many freeze and thaw cycles, the rock moves a little each time and rain forces soil under the rock. Then we come along with our plows and discs and turn the soil and rocks over and voila we are picking rocks again!

If you don't believe that the freeze cycle has anything to do with it, just visit a tennis court that had the fence posts concreted at the surface. I have replaced many tennis courts in Maryland and tried several methods, but a concrete fence post foundation that does not go below the frost line will heave every time. We have even tried to mushroom the bottom of the hole to prevent this lifting effect then pave over the concrete and seal around the posts. In a few years of serious frost, you still get posts that heave.

It's just an opinion and I'm sure someone in Florida will say that they don't have frost but still have rock problems. I'm not saying that it is the only or even primary cause, but I believe it certainly facilitates the rock migration. How else would a field that has been plowed only 6-8" deep for over 100 years continue to "grow" rocks? You should eventually be able to totally eradicate the rocks from that top 8" of soil.

Bottom line is if you don't want rocks, don't turn the soil.

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john

12-29-2003 07:15:46




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to 720Deere, 12-29-2003 06:47:04  
Well I do not live in flordia; and we do not have a frost problem other than it killing the grass and I still have a rock (gravel) problem here in deep south LA.
My problem is I put gravel in my drive and then 5-7 years later it is all gone. Mashed and sunk down into the dirt and I need to add more gravel.

I wish you northerners would quite stealing my rocks.
SORRY just in one of those moods today!!!!

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Jon H

12-28-2003 22:18:19




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
Well of coarse it's frost that pushes rocks to the surface. Been told that all my life. Must be true.Just one of the laws of nature. Odd thing though,9 years ago I stopped pulling steel hooks through my soil and plant my crops with a low disturbance notill disc drill. The rocks no longer rise to the surface,and the level of the soil no longer goes down. The law of nature has changed, My farm land now acts much like the surrounding virgin prairie that has never seen a plow or cultivator :).

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john d

12-28-2003 20:12:00




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
You may be giving people on this board more credit than is deserved if you expect us to outsmart those rocks! I've wondered about this myself, and I think frost absolutely MUST play a part in it, but I think that's probably only part of the answer.

I'm on a central Indiana farm that's been in my family over 90 years, and 5 generations of us have picked up rocks! Frost is certainly a factor, but the ground here seldom freezes deeper than 40", even in a cold winter. Frost may not be doing much to rocks that are several feet deep.

Another curious thing to me, is that the little ones and the big ones seem to rise at approximately the same rate, or we would (I think) begin to run out of one size after a while! This farm's been tilled for over 150 years, and it doesn't have a big rock problem compared to a lot of places. But, there are rock piles on every farm in the community, and many of those rock piles are over 100 years old. The rocks we get today seem to be pretty much the size, type, and shape of the ones my grandfather used to pick up.

Maybe it's as simple as my neighbor throwing his over the fence....

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A SERIOUS ANSWER...Jeff (

12-28-2003 19:12:57




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
Well, it is caused by frost... More specifically though, as water enters the soil in the form of rain, melting snow, etc., it obviously moves downward through the ground because of gravity. In winter, when this subsurface water freezes, it expands--and pushes against everything around it. If we only consider the vertical axis, this ice pushes down against the soil below and up against whatever is above. Because the soil below is already very compacted, the main action is upwards...specifically, hard material like rocks above the ice get pushed up. Of course, we're talking about the collective action of billions of tiny pockets of water in the soil...freezing and expanding, with the main result being the upward pushing of anything solid--rocks. HTH. Jeff.

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JCB

12-29-2003 03:24:23




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to A SERIOUS ANSWER...Jeff (, 12-28-2003 19:12:57  
Thanks for all the great answers. A lot of what has been said, makes sense. With that in mind, why don't grave vaults rise to the surface?



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720Deere

12-29-2003 06:28:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-29-2003 03:24:23  
If it freezes deep enough to heave the burial vaults, you would have more serious problems than rocks to worry about!



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CH

12-29-2003 04:30:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-29-2003 03:24:23  
They do in New Orleans.



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john

12-29-2003 07:21:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to CH, 12-29-2003 04:30:45  
Not because of frost!!!!! !!!!! !1
THEY FLOAT!!!!! !!!!! !1
And if the truth be known they still do not heave out the ground because we do not bury our dead. We put them in a above ground graves.



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Larry806

12-28-2003 19:37:52




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to A SERIOUS ANSWER...Jeff (, 12-28-2003 19:12:57  
I had a old timer tell me NEVER to harvest ( pick up) a rock unless you carefully rap plastic around it or the seeds will fall off & 7 more will grow in its place You know sometimes I beleive him lol



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CH

12-28-2003 19:27:45




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to A SERIOUS ANSWER...Jeff (, 12-28-2003 19:12:57  
You've got a good point. And when things settle down after the heave, the fine dirt particles can settle easier than big rock particles. The dirt get under the rocks. Just theoroizing.



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RayP(MI)

12-28-2003 18:45:24




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
Well, first of all surface erosion will remove the top, revealing rocks below. This is probably not the whole answer, however - could it be that the rock is less dense than the mud surrounding the stone? This would allow the rocks to "float" upward under certain conditions, of frost, ground water, heaving, temperature changes, etc. Rocks are always down there - Son and I found one this spring that had been giving three generations of farmers trouble on this farm. Found one of my dad's plow points broken off on a ledge toward the top of the rock. It extended down another five feet! We got it out, and it's never going to bother another farmer, unless they persist in plowing swamps!

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Sid

12-28-2003 19:04:56




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to RayP(MI), 12-28-2003 18:45:24  
You got some good points, I do not think it is all surfsce erosion if it were my farm would be at least twenty feet deep by now.



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CH

12-28-2003 18:44:04




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
Your loosing topsoil to the wind and errosion. Been picking rocks for over forty years.



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bob

12-28-2003 17:52:15




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 Re: Rock/Stone in reply to JCB, 12-28-2003 17:07:26  
I have a theory; rocks migrate, as do geese. Every spring I throw them from my garden down onto my driveway, yet next spring, there they are, back in the garden waiting to be tossed down on the road again. I think its fun for them. JMHO.



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ShepFL - LMAO!!!

12-28-2003 18:11:25




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to bob, 12-28-2003 17:52:15  
Thanks for the BIG GRIN :)



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bob

12-28-2003 22:29:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to ShepFL - LMAO!!!, 12-28-2003 18:11:25  
your welcome; all that time pickin rock your mind has to be thinking of something. Might as well see the humor in it; crying dont help.



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JCB

12-28-2003 18:10:22




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 Re: Re: Rock/Stone in reply to bob, 12-28-2003 17:52:15  
And I put the little ones back in the field to give them a chance to grow up! If this was true, I could make a reasonable profit selling the results to landscaper's.



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