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Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but....

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Tom

11-28-2003 06:50:16

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I realize I'm not talking about the latest trucks, but I don't put on many miles. After spending ten years with a Chevy6.2l diesel our new 96 Chevy 6.5l turbo seemed like a dream. We only have 40k miles on it but it is falling apart just sitting in the garage. Power wise it is somewhat disappointing and keeps needing new parts like 8 new injectors and weeping eng oil cooler lines, etc. Mileage is a joke 13 empty 10 loaded and runs hot. I have talked to a lot of diesel owners and I'm a mechanic but I still don't believe the mileage claims. One guy tells me his Cummins Dodge gets 20-22mpg with a loaded stock trailer. One guy with a 9ft camper was more realistic 13 loaded 16 empty. Whats the truth? I don't want to start a Chev-Ford-Dodge war,please. I'm thinking of a used Ford 7.3 pwrstrk. I met six guys already with failed Allisons in Chevys. Thanks

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mike

12-01-2003 00:08:34

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I have a 86 ford f350 drw 2wd 6.9 ats turbo gear vendors overdrive and 4.11 gears truck had 280000 on it when i got it would do 19 empty and about 14-16 loaded to about 10 to 12k its got 360000on it now have no reason to believe it has ever been into as it had a stack of recpiets going clear back to almost new for the ad ons and brakes tires and so forth one reman pump & injectors and needs them again and needs turbo rebuilt and still gets 11.2 at 14k+ went to wash. a while back 350 miles each way through the mountians 14500up and 13200 back and avg 15 mpg alot of it is how the motor is set up just my .02 good luck mike

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Todd

11-30-2003 10:54:06

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Cummins would be great if you didn't have to have a Dodge hooked to it.HaHa

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Jeff

11-29-2003 21:40:57

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Aww heck might as well throw mine in here too. We have both and Dodge and a Ford. WE did have a ford one ton with 4:11's before that and that is how the Dodge is set up as well. The Ford we have now is a one ton with 3:56? 3:70? It is a 96 3/4 ton so what ever they put in them is what it has.

Dodge will pull a load easier and hold it's speed and RPM better than either of the other. Usual loads are around 15k-20k on gooseneck trailers. Ford one ton would average about 13 mpg empty and about 9 loaded. Dodge one ton will get about 15-16 empty and 11-13 loaded. Running empty most of the time at about 65-70, loaded around 55-60. The Ford 3/4 ton will get about 17-19 empty and around 11-12 loaded. Fords ride and drive better but that might be because the Dodge has the solid front axle and sits up like a 4wd.

All of these are 1996 trucks so their wasn't am major change in them for comparison. WE had more trouble from the Ford one ton than we have had so far on the others. Ford 1 ton had 90K on it when we sold it, Dodge has about 90k on it now and the Ford 1 ton has 179k on it.

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Jim

11-29-2003 17:39:30

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

My 2 Cents I have a 96 Ford PSD 4x4 Which on occasion I pull a 763 Bobcat> I gone up some steep hills pulling and the power is ther when needed.yes the glow plug sensor has gone out with just 75.000 miles on it an had to have the high pressure fuel pump replaced $ 1.000 ouch. empty I get 18 mpg about 13-14 mpg loaded.Now my brothers new chevy with the Durmax will run circles around my truck.pulling his big bass boat but again I have a 96 an he has a 04 technology has improved.

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Ron 1456

11-29-2003 19:33:20

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Jim, 11-29-2003 17:39:30

I noticed a lot of comments about fuel mileage here. My 93 Freightliner with 425hp 12.7 Detroit gets about 6 mpg when I'm grossing 80,000 lbs with my grain trailer and a little better than that with the drop deck and 4 tractors (2 1466's and 2 1456's). How does that compare with your newer pickups?

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p-c-y

11-29-2003 17:24:21

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

i have owned them all, dodge , chevy, ford, dsl and gas and have never been able to get the milage other people claim, the best milage i ever got was from a turboed 6.2 around 22 empty 16 pulling a trailor and pulling tractor, right now we got 2 ford 6.9 trucks no power 15 or so mpg, 2 7.3 trucks no power either just better gearing 17 mpg empty, my 97 f350 ps dsl gets absolutly no milage and dont have no more power than it needs, yesterday i hauled a 302 jd tractor and a 4230 jd to london ohio, 90 miles i hauled 2 806 ih tractorsback when i filled it back up it figgured a whole 7.5 mpg, im not impressed,

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Shane

11-29-2003 06:53:03

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I myself don't own a diesel but am a GM guy all the way. However, I do know for fact that the injection pumps on the 6.5L were kinda weak, if you have one go out have a good diesel shop rebuild it. And I also know for fact that someone had the great idea to save weight on the engines by shaving some of the block off behind one of the cylinders- hence a good place for a crack. Not sure what years that happened or when they finally decided it was a bad idea. Our seed dealer has an '01 Ford and pulls about 18,000 loaded and gets about 16 mpg and 18 mpg empty. He had a few Dodges but couldn't keep a tranny but they did about the same on fuel. Have a good friend who has Belgians and will get 18 mpg loaded with around 16,000 and over 20 mpg empty and has a Duramax/Allison. Another friend has a new 6.0L Ford and gets 16 mpg empty, but it seems to just shut down every now and then for no reason??? As far as the Allisons breaking that sounds strange to me, Allison builds trannys for the big trucks and I know they know what they are doing, curious as to what happened.

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gatractorman

11-29-2003 04:12:51

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Might as well tell my story too, my truck a '94 F-250, 4x4, ext. cab, LWB, 5-speed with 3:56 gears, mine is a early '94 model with the regular 7.3 and a factory turbo, they started all that PSD and electronic engine control shhh...stuff in late '94, I just installed a new set of tires and wheels on it and messed up my power and fuel mileage but on a recent 160 mile round trip (after the new wheels and tires) pulling 1500# one way and 6000# back I still got 13 mpg, rolling hills and lots of small towns, knock on wood never much trouble with this truck only have 119,000 on it, replaced glow plugs last winter, durn plastic clutch slave cylinders, and it seems I may be getting some valve stem seal leakage now with a little blue smoke on cold startup, very happy with this truck I can still do whatever maintenance this truck needs, it wont pull with the PSD's or Cummins but I wont be far behind.

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Gene Davis (GA.)

11-28-2003 18:46:36

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Neighbor down below me has a good idea. he likes to ride in his 82'chev gas burner when he wants power for showing off. then for work he has taken a Dodge/Cummins 24 valve engine with the turbo,manual 4 speed trans, and stuffed it into his F-450 Ford work truck, and is now doing a F-250 with a Dodge/Cummins and a Dodge auto non computerized automatic transmission for his long range fetching vehicle. He said the hood opening wasn't long enough to put it into the Chevrolet. Guess he has the better of things? Gene Davis

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geok

11-29-2003 05:57:49

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Gene Davis (GA.), 11-28-2003 18:46:36

A friend of mine put a cummins in a 84 chev crewcab dually and he really likes it. He really cranked up the power on it. So he doesn't get good mileage but he can pull hills with out any problems.

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Frank

11-28-2003 18:08:51

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I think alot of the mileage difference is in the fuel itself. I just drove to the east coast from Montana. The terrain is for the most part the same, level to slightly rolling,all interstate, driving at 65 mph pulling a trailer. I have averaged 14mpg on Cenex fuel in Montana,15 in ND on Cenex, 11mpg in minnesota on BP,12.5 on Connoco in Wis. the worst I got was 8.5 mpg from a Flying J in Indiana.Rest of the way to Pa averaged 13-14 on whatever they sell on the turnpike. This was all straight No.2 diesel.

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jdemaris

11-28-2003 17:36:34

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I've experienced a lot of exaggerated fuel mileage claims. Some from people I know
well and are not chronic liars or boasters, so who knows? Maybe with large or dual fuel
tanks, some people just figure they're getting good mileage since the fuel gauge needle
moves slow. I worked for a John Deere dealer when Chevy came out with the first diesel powered
full size pickup trucks. Two mechanics I worked with went out and bought new ones. What pieces of junk! I'm sure all have heard the horror stories of the G.M. 350 c.i. diesel,
made from an Oldsmobile gas engine. The local Chevy dealer was sending all the broken
trucks to our Deere shop, since the Chevy guys didn't know how to work on them. Anyway, moving on a bit. Thanks to the miserable reputation of those first engines,
G.M. carried a stigma for a long time. And thanks to that, I've gotten some pretty good
deals on the later 6.2s. Kind of hard to convince people sometimes that Detroit Diesel
designed the later engines, and not Chevy. Our military seems to like them though. My first was an 87 Suburban. I knew the original owner and was always bugging him
about mileage. Claimed he got 30 m.p.g. When the vehicle's odometer hit 250,000 miles
I bought it for $500. His mechanic told him it had a rod knock and needed a new engine. It was just a bad injector. I rebuilt the injection pump and put in new injectors ($30
piece) and have put another 200K miles on it. So, at is sits, it has 450,000 miles and runs
great. Does eat a quart of oil every 1000 miles. And the mileage? Absolute best I've
ever gotten was 19 and I average around 16. Granted I live in the mountains where
everything is uphill or downhill. Since my first 6.2, I got two more. Both K-5 Blazers that I use as plow-trucks. Both 6.2
automatics, one with the 4 speed overdrive and one with the 3 speed T-400. Both get the
same mileage, avg. 16 and up to 22 on the highway. 6.2s are simple and reliable. Not big on power, though. I've also had some
almost-overheating problems on long pulls with a trailer on steep hills. I say almost,
because I've never boiled over yet or broke anything, but seems I've come close. So now I'm looking for a truck with a little better trailer pulling capability. I'd like to
find a G.M. 6.5 with the older mechanical injection system. It's more reliable than the
newer units; that's the way our military orders them for their trucks and Humvees. Seems, though, around here there are Fords for sale in much more abundance than G.M.s. They sell for less too, not sure why. I've had Chevy in my blood for close to 50 years, but
it's looking like I might get a Ford. Hope I can live with it. Must admit, when I sit in a
Ford nothing feels right. But, maybe it's all in my head. Anyway, I've got no problem with
International equipment, and it's their engine. Back to mileage that is verified, got a friend with his second Ford 7.3 truck, best he's
gotten is 17 m.p.g. Another friend has a Dodge with the Cummins 5.9, best he's gotten is
18 m.p.g. and lots of Dodge related problems, but the engine has been fine. Out of all the
trucks, I guess the Cummins is the only engine rated as a "medium duty" diesel. All the
rest are "light."

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kyhayman

11-28-2003 16:57:49

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I've got an '01 2500 Dodge with a Cummins 24v, 4x4 quad cab, extra leaf springs but no whistles and bells, just a/c; with a 5 speed. Gets 17 mpg avg with a shade over 100,000 miles on it. Paid $27,700 for it at Mann's in Mt Sterling, KY. Got it new and no major complaints. Best I ever did was 22 driving at 1600 rpm, worst was loaded heavy and running fast, down about 11. Off road is worse on mileage but I never checked it. Since I got an ATV and can keep it out of the field most of the time I think I probably gained 1 to 1.5 mpg. Fuel cost is comparable to gas, about .20 cheaper in the summer and about .20 higher in the winter. I try to prepay 2000 gallons (years supply) of highway diesel in the summer and then get it delivered as I need it. Can usually get another dime knocked off for that sized purchase. Only major repairs so far were a freeze plug and a couple of axle seals, plus 2 sets of brakes.

Bottom line is the fuel economy is about the same as in the Dakota I had and it is a lot more comfortable to drive.

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stumpy

11-28-2003 16:38:14

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Yes sir! Fuel mileage,operating temps,power and glow plug/fuel injector life all can be shortened by improper timing! Not doubting any work that was done, but when the pump(s) were put in were they properly timed(With a tach and time)? My 93' 2500 6.2L didn't have the most hair on it's chest, but I found a few simple problems with it. 1. O.P. switch has 2 circuits, one for O.P., the other is proof circuit to turn on the electric fuel pump. Beleive it or not the injection pump will pull fuel from the tank, however a major power will be present.
2.If the injection timing is not spot on the truck will overheat,and a loss of power will result(not to mention burning off the tips off the glow plugs and injectors)
3.The older pumps were designed for sulpher in the fuel, low sulpher fuel will cause the injection pump to stick/ repsond slowly(lack of power) Add a fuel supplement with lubricating properties to your fuel now and then.
4.The viscous drive fan is a major source of aggrevation, Is the grill blocked in front of the bi-metal spring on the front of the clutch? Does it lock up when the truck is running hot? Is the radiator plugged up? Has it beeen recored or replaced with a rad with the improper fin/ tube count? The 6.2/6.5 mechanical engines used a very large radiator so all the fins and tubes are very important. I just want to relate my dealings with 6.2/6.5's in my prior fleet, both in trucks and vans. I really miss them they are a fairly straight forward engine to work on. Most of mine had 140,000 plus when they were sold, I sorry you have had such a bad time, hope this post helps.
Stumpy

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I like T-bone's math but.

11-28-2003 14:34:43

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

We were saving $ per gallon with our 6.5 also but don't forget when something pukes on a diesel its expensive, our $800 set of injectors sure jacked up our $ per mile. And I wouldn't want to buy a set of HUEI injectors for a new style engine. Not that they're going to go but if they do....Also, we don't farm and can't enjoy the luxury of low or no tax fuel.

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thurlow

11-28-2003 18:52:25

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to I like T-bone's math but., 11-28-2003 14:34:43

Can't legally burn untaxed fuel in a licensed/on-road vehicle; it's for farm/construction/off-road use, etc only; not saying it doesn't happen, but there are LARGE fines if you do it and are caught.....

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jdemaris

11-28-2003 19:35:05

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Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck bat in reply to thurlow, 11-28-2003 18:52:25

I've seen many trucks as well as few diesel cars that are run on heating oil. Legal or not, it's done. Irony is the heating oil (a.k.a. dyed diesel) is actually better for the distributor style injector pumps since it has more lubricosity. As I understand it, such high-sulphur fuel will foul up the newest diesels coming out. Seems there's some sort of particulate filters being introduced to lower emissions - and they won't handle high sulphur fuel.

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Shane

11-29-2003 06:32:34

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck in reply to jdemaris, 11-28-2003 19:35:05

Here is a kicker! The last time we had fuel delivered I saw a bottle of red dye in the truck so I asked what that was for. Since the driver is a close family friend he told me that that is the difference in the price of the 2 fuels he just put in our tanks. Same fuel in both but in the off road tank he has to add that dye. So does the off road fuel really have more sulfur in it? Hmmm...

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Diesel Fuel Mileage****T_

11-28-2003 11:43:14

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Hi Tom,

Here is reprint of some of my diesel thoughts that I've used on the RV forums with my 2k2 F350, DRW, CC, 6x6, lwb, PSD, 6spd, 3:73 :

****************************************

What you need to do is set-up a test road for base mileage check. Mine is 125miles RT on a Interstate. About 60%flat and 40% rolling hills from 1400ft to 2200ft and is a typical Interstate for my area. I only use Flying J fuel (Conoco) using the same pump to fill up each time. I'm 10 miles RT from the Interstate and Flying J is off the exit ramp.

Driving like I have a egg under my foot, I can squeak out 20.75mpg@55mph on my test road and 19.2@61mph, 18mpg@65, 17.1mpg@70mph. Thats is good as it's going to get for "me" and my base mileage.

I decided on the 19.2mpg@61 was a good average for me to live with. I then tried shifting at different rpm's. If I stepped on the pedal just a tad too hard while swaping gears that can drop me down too 17mpg, depending on how hard I push the shifts and take offs. 18mpg is easy to come by but I have to work to get that 19.2mpg. My engine is very picky on how it's driven for mileage.

After about 10 trips on my test road retraining my thinking on how to drive the PSD, I now get 19.2mpg@60mph with towing 20kGCW for 60 miles@25mph, 80% hi-way, on each tank and every tank. I shift at 1300rpm.

No it's not a fluke as I now have about 15000miles on and every tank full is the same, 19.2mpg. The only time my mileage does change is when I forget to use my "new" driving style or towing a load.

On two recent Az to Co trips, 1900 miles each, towing 16k GCW I got 14.1mpg average!

You might also reset the PCM. Disconect the battery's over night. Thats helped when my mileage has been off the normal.

You might want to set-up your own test road just to see what your X can do at ,55, 60,65 and 70mph as a base test. If your mileage improves then it's your driving style that needs adjustment, if not then you need to look at why the low mileage and the first thing I would look for is air in the fuel, thats providing your all stock, tires, no chip, no lift, air pressure correct, etc..

Engine lugging is adding fuel without gaining RPM at WOT and can occur at any RPM.

Below is what Ford says about lugging in the F650/750 owners manual:

"Excessive full throttle operation below peak torque RPM will shorten engine life to overhaul and can cause serious engine damage. Operation of the engine below peak torque RPM can occur during gear shifting due to difference of gear ratios."

T_Bone

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Diesel Vs Gas ***T_Bone

11-28-2003 11:46:42

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Diesel Fuel Mileage****T_, 11-28-2003 11:43:14

Here is my diesel vs gas cost comparrision!

***********************************************

Seams like a good time to once again get all the "myths" back to reality with some math!

If we look at actual prices and get some "good" numbers too work with then we could come up with the following list:

V10 towing 20,000lbs GCW @ 8mpg average using 5k oil changes for 10,000 total miles
Oil and filter= $16eh= $32net
Fuel $1.50gal average= $1875

PSD towing 20,000lbs GCW @ 12mpg average using 5k oil changes for 10,000 total miles
Oil and filter= $32eh= $64net
Fuel $1.50gal average= $1250

100k= PSD total fuel and oil change cost $13,140
100k= V10 total fuel and oil change cost $19,070

Diesel wins by $5930 per 100k miles
My 2K2 diesel cost $3,450 vs V10 $500= $2950 diff

$5930-$2950= $2,980 diesel savings the first 100k miles.

Assuming fuel prices will stay the same (ya right) $1.50gal for 300k miles a PSD saves $14,840 in fuel.

A V-10 cost for the same truck as spec'd below $30,900 or $.103/mile for 300k miles, I already dicounted the up-front cost of the diesel engine.

I paid $30,900 for my PSD truck so my net cost per mile is $30,900-$14,840= $16,060 or $.0535/mile for 300k miles or 1/2 the V10 cost.

Lets take it one step more. Lets say the average price of fuel, gas and diesel, in the next 5yrs averages $2.10/gal, from 5yrs to 10yrs averages $3.10/gal, using 30k total miles/yr at 70% empty and 30% towing 20,000lbs GCW, V10 8mpg towing 14mpg empty, PSD 12mpg towing 20mpg empty, then we get:

V10= empty fuel cost= $39,000 Towing fuel cost= $29,251 or $68,252 gross fuel cost for 10yrs

PSD= empty fuel cost= $27,300 Towing fuel cost= $19,500 or $46,800 gross fuel cost for 10yrs

PSD saves $21,415 in fuel cost over a V10

I have not even considered how a PSD will out pull a V10 towing 20,000lbs as to make a V10 last 300k miles one would have to tow at 60% of rated torque RPM.

The diesel wins hands down in cost and towing power no matter how you run the numbers.

T_Bone

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More from Tom

11-28-2003 10:27:10

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I DID say I was considering a Used Ford. I know diesels are best for long hauls, but no engine should need $800 worth of injectors at 40k miles. And oil lines should not leak right through the rubber and by the dealers admission be a chronic problem, but not warranty. I agree that the old 6.2's were good but anemic for power and we could've bought two replacement gas engines for what we spent on pumps, injs, and relays and relays and glow plugs....I was told that the 6.5 was altogether different and when researching it in 96, equal to other two. In tests at the time ford, chevy, and dodge were within 5 hp and 10 ft/lbs torque, but you see very few 1990's vintage 6.5 chevy's and lots of dodges and fords. If we were driving this like most people do it would disintigrate. It practically has a meltdown here in Mich. running with the air on pulling a tractor. If we lived in south or Ariz. it would burn up. I know the resale value on the same vintage fords and dodges in better too.

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Bob T.

11-28-2003 09:27:53

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Why buy a new truck? Even if you can afford it, does it really make much economic sense to spend give or take $35K on a new one? Especially ones with quad cab, heated leather seats, lariat, slt etc. and all that other BS you don't need. Maybe I am just cheap but I think that a used truck of any make GM, Dodge, Ford would be reliable if well maintained, unless you got stuck with the occasional lemon. Is it a ego thing? I would rather spend on land. I am perfectly happy with an 93' Chevy 3/4 ton 350, 120K been a good truck, bought it fivw years ago. Depreciation is bad on a new vehicle too, even if you plan to keep it for twenty years it's still a factor to consider. I don't think there is anything wrong with having something nice, I just think that spending that much is very accessive.

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Ludwig

11-28-2003 11:26:56

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Bob T., 11-28-2003 09:27:53

You got that right. While I'd love to have a new truck my '96 Dakota is plenty, 146,000 with no real troubles other than a water pump.
You want real longevity though you want a Mercedes Diesel. Mrs. Ludwig drives an '83 Mercdes Benz 240D 4cyl diesel, its got 213,000 miles! I figure in another 70k it'll need new injectors, they're supposed to be good for 140k. It'll probably need its third clutch around then. I use synthetic oil so it'll start easier when its cold and that thing runs like a top. I commute with it a couple days a week to keep our gas costs down. Around here diesel is a penny or two cheaper and the car gets 35mpg compared to my truck's 20.

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Larry806

11-28-2003 09:20:35

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I think Cummins is one of the best motors made. But you can't run fast enough to give me anything that say's Dodge on it It's a proven fact Dodge owners can't read (I owned one)Look the word Dodge up in the dictionary. I've got a 6.2 that's not the fastest thing around but I have gotten 19 mpg with a tractor on. I have a 6.9 that has a lot more power & get's 15 to 16 loaded Youngest son has a 6.9 that get's 16 to 17 loaded. Oldest son has a powerstroke I don't know what he get's for millage but I've never saw a new Chevy or Dodge pull with him He just leaves them behind

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Dell-MN

11-28-2003 08:50:16

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I have a 99 f-350 power stroke. 14-16 mpg around home and 15-20 on the road. Pulling a load doesnt seem to make much diff on the milage. A constant wind on a long haul does. Have had a low as 11 mpg. The 2003 6.0 my wife drives is getting better milage but dont have enough experiance with it to brag or complain. Seems to be getting around 18.

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kraig WY

11-28-2003 08:25:33

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Got two 7.3 Fords. One a 99 is a powerstroke, the other 94, isn't. I have 155K on the 99. Never a problem except for oil changes and filters. I do a lot of heavy hauling, empty I get 17-19 mpg, and depending on what I'm hauling 12-17 mpg (hay is the worst, weight plus wind drag). Come ride with me if you don't believe it. I'll never go back to gas. Milage and power does make a differance when I go to winter fuel (#1 diesel). Never had a Dodge or Chevy diesel so can't comment on those. From my experence with the fords I see no reason to change.

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Robert in W. Mi

11-28-2003 08:19:09

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I had all three bands with diesels at the same time. The Ford was the newest, and once it got out of warr., i had to foot the bill. I'm not impressed with the power stroke at all, as it just seems to be one problem after another with glow plugs, water pump, relays ect, ect.... Cost per mile for ownership, it was worse than any Chevy or the Dodge Cummins i still have. My brothers PS had the same problems, and i'm reading all the time of the sensor-glow plug-relay-water pump- problems on other ag sites.

By far the best designed diesel out there is the Cummins!!! It has NO glow plugs, and always starts easily even when it's cold out. Mine uses less fuel that the PS's did too.

My Chevys have been my best trucks and i've talked to "at least" 20 Duramax owners, all love there Durmax diesel/Allison combo. There was some puter glitch in the early allisons, but that was quickly corrected. No i don't have one, but i wouldn't be afraid to buy one either.

I've had 5 6.2's, and all were good. The origional one i bought is still running fine with 197,000 miles on it. I still have another with 100,000 on it too, and neither one has had any internal motor trouble.

For me milage has been best with the Chev, with 20 to 21 "best" empty, Cummins is second at about "best" 20 empty, our PS's got about 18 at "best".

In my area, diesel is cheaper than gas, and all my diesels use a heck of a lot less fuel when pulling than any gas engine we've used. (my brother has also had a V10 Ford, and a V10 Dodge)

As for the 4K extra for the diesel, that's true, but the diesel comes with some things i'd order anyway if i was getting a gas engine. Like a cold climate package, HP springs, and dual batts. ect.. That makes up for some of the extra cost.

The Cummins it the best pulling truck we've had, and easily beats them all for reliability.

Robert

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Ludwig

11-28-2003 11:20:17

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Robert in W. Mi, 11-28-2003 08:19:09

How does it start when its cold if it doesn't have glow plugs?

Just curious.

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Shane

11-29-2003 06:21:26

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Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck bat in reply to Ludwig, 11-28-2003 11:20:17

They same way most of the old diesels do. Most older tractors and such just didn't have glow plugs and relied on just the compression. We have 2 Cat 3208's and a 3116 in a truck, tractor, and combine and they all fire before cranking more than twice even down to -10 with wind. Several of our Case tractors will start decentely down to zero too. Then again both these engines were the best ever built!<---my opinion anyways!

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Bob

11-28-2003 20:24:05

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Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck bat in reply to Ludwig, 11-28-2003 11:20:17

They have intake manifold heaters.

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Gene Davis

11-28-2003 18:37:28

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Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck bat in reply to Ludwig, 11-28-2003 11:20:17

Don't think direct injection needs a glow plug setup like a pre-combustion chamber set up.

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Robert in W. Mi

11-29-2003 15:40:18

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck in reply to Gene Davis, 11-28-2003 18:37:28

No, direct injection doesn't need glow plugs, but the power stroke IS direct injection, yet what ever fool that designed it, put glow plugs into the design!! Worse yet, you have to take the valve covers off to get at those glow plugs to change them!!!!!

And, as was already said, the Cummins has two heater grids in the air intake. They pre heat the incomeing air when cold starting the engine. I've started mine in below zero temps. more than once with out plugging in the 110v block heater.

Robert

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Ludwig

11-28-2003 08:10:15

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

By your own admission you're looking at the wrong trucks. "but I don't put on many miles" diesels are for high mileage drivers, short trips will ruin them.
Get a truck with a big v8 gasser and be happy. A diesel will run you more or less $4000 in a comparably equipped truck and maintenance is more for them too. You can buy alot of gas with that kind of money.

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Mark McElvy

11-28-2003 07:51:37

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I have a 99 F350 Crew dually w/ 7.3 PowerStroke. I usually got about 13-14 MPG. Worst was 10 hauling 18k load. I just purchased a SuperChips programmer for it and two tanks of fuel have yeilded 21-22 MPG. Have yet to haul anything since reprogramming.

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Stan TN

11-28-2003 08:11:59

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Mark McElvy, 11-28-2003 07:51:37

I'm amazed at the poor milage everybody is getting. When I moved I rented U-Hauls biggest truck, and drove it from CA to TN on I-10,20,30&40. The truck got 17 mpg for the entire trip. We did it in Dec. so the air was denser than summer, but still.....

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JOHN (LA)

11-28-2003 11:00:41

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Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck bat in reply to Stan TN, 11-28-2003 08:11:59

Stan what you have to realize is that MPG is not proportionate with truck size. What I mean is our truck at work gets 7.5 to 8 mpg and we gross 80,000 lbs 50% of the time. I know people that do not get that with a loaded pickup. MPG has more to do with gearing than anything

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Stan TN

11-29-2003 18:09:43

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck in reply to JOHN (LA), 11-28-2003 11:00:41

So why have the manufacturers downsized so many autos while attempting to meet the CAFE requirements? I gathered from that the real things limiting mileage were weight and frontal area.

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JOHN (LA)

11-30-2003 06:52:19

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel t in reply to Stan TN, 11-29-2003 18:09:43

While I am not the one to try and explain the physics of it let me try. You are comparing apples and oranges now.(cars and trucks)

Cars..... These are made for city driving. While the big V8 could burn the tires off it is wasted energy. A 4 cylinder will always get better mileage but you have to reduce the size of the car and give up horsepower for it to work. So we make the car as small as we can then put a smaller motor in it to up MPG.

Trucks.... They do not have that option in fact trucks are bigger than in past years. So what do you do? Well they added flaring for air flow. But the biggest thing they did was change gear ratio. To do this they had to up the horsepower. And it worked; trucks have bigger motors now yet get better mileage but only on the highway.

Pickups that tow..... Now we are trying to have the best of both worlds. We want it to be a car one day yet tow a tractor at 70 mph the next day. Sorry but it just does not work that way so they pay for it in MPG

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stewart smith

11-28-2003 07:46:27

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

hello Well I tell you this much the Cummins will last longer then the v8's anyday ! And as for milage the Cummins is great pulling or not .but what it all comes down to is what you really want to work on they all break down .this might help you which gets better fuel a Deere in line 6 or a Massy v8?Cummins says the best truck would be a chevy with the Cummins in it but they won't do it because of the GM people. they run test and it was amuch better in everything with the same motors in them and tranny's . I've had the gases and will never go back.

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rustyfarmall

11-28-2003 07:26:39

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I don't believe those exaggerated claims for fuel mileage either, plus the fact that diesel fuel at the pump is higher priced than gasoline, and the fact that a diesel engine equipped truck will cost about $4,000 more than a comparable gas engine truck. Add all of these things together and I made the decision to buy a Chevy equipped with the 8.1 gas engine and the 6 speed manual trans. I have never been sorry, the only problem I ever had with the engine was when the crank sensor went out shortly after the truck was new. This truck has the 4.11 gears, and will get 10 to 12 mpg normal driving not loaded. The worst it has ever done was 8 mpg, with a D-19 Allis on the trailer, while traveling I-70 through Colorado. If you are familiar with that stretch of road, you know that it has to be pretty much the ultimate test for any truck.
You guys with the diesels can keep them.

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Willy-N

11-28-2003 07:25:19

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

My 1995 Chevy 350 injected Gas engine gets 15 mpg in town and pulling the hills. I think it will do better out on the flats. My other 1980 Chevy 350 gets 8-10 mpg driving it the same way but it has headers and a carter compitision carb and both are 4X4s and less miles on the 1980 engine. My freinds 7.3 Ford Power Stroke gets around 15-18 on the same drive empty. Mark H.

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Indydirtfarmer

11-28-2003 07:24:31

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

I've got a Dodge 3/4 ton, 4wd, with a Cummings H/O diesel, and manual tranny. It got 16.8 hwy milage, running emtey, on a recent trip. It gets about 12.5 city driving. Towing a 7500lb tractor, on a 2500lb trailer, I got 11.2 on the hwy. Not exactly mind boggling milage, but about what I would expect. I have had it with GM products. For years, I wouldn't own anything else. The last one was a '98 GMC 1 ton dually, that was the biggest piece of J.U.N.K. I've ever drove. I have had fair luck with Fords, but nothing to write home about either. The Dodge is new. (2004) I won't try to say it's the best truck I've ever owned (yet), but it seems to be a well built, quality truck. My brother in law has a 1990 Dodge diesel, with over 500,000 miles on it. It's still a good sound truck. It all has to do with luck. Every brand has it's good ones, and it's bad ones. Just luck. When I here someone making wild claims about their truck, and what it'll do, I just remember that old saying. Anything that sounds too good to be true, usually is. JMHO, John

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billie boobop

11-28-2003 08:08:39

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Indydirtfarmer, 11-28-2003 07:24:31

Such humility is well placed.

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Van

11-28-2003 07:13:43

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Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, but in reply to Tom, 11-28-2003 06:50:16

Have a 01 Dodge 2500 with a Cummins and a auto transmission. I get between 17 and 22 empty depending on the weight of my right foot. Pulling a 30' gooseneck with a 6000# tractor loaded I get a average of 13 MPG, its been worse and its been better. My usual average unloaded with no trailer is probably around 19.

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arthur

11-28-2003 19:12:53

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Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck battle, in reply to Van, 11-28-2003 07:13:43

the battle is over lot's of good coments.
hope all of like the trucks you drive to you ther is non better have many happy days and miles on the road of life. good night arthur.

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Mguy

11-29-2003 07:01:09

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Re: Re: Re: Don't want to start a diesel truck bat in reply to arthur, 11-28-2003 19:12:53

Man, I never thought it would happen. That length discussion and NO snotty crap said. Good restraint guys.Mguy.

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