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Are police bound by the laws they enforce ?

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will marcum

10-01-2003 06:52:07




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Our local county Sheriff says that he does not have to obey the traffic laws because he wears a badge, and as he puts it , "no one can give me a ticket." I thought that police were bound by the laws like all of us until a situation causes them to be forced to act outside of them. Like speeding in pursuit ,or some such thing. just wondering




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******************VOTE***

10-03-2003 21:20:26




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Will,Do you vote? Talk loud and hard and vote for anybody else.



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Buzzman72

10-02-2003 06:31:15




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
A couple more points on this subject, then I'll shut up:

First, an observation...while most officers are good guys trying to do a good job at the "protect and serve" thing, I've been pulled over by some who apparently just enjoy being a bully, and the badge makes it legal. Just hope I outlive some of them!

Second, I want to relate an incident that occurred in the small town in southern Indiana where I grew up. When I was 17--and Indiana had an 11 pm curfew for those under 18--the county where I lived operated on daylight savings time, same as Louisville, KY...while state law, and the Federal Uniform Time Act, required the official time to be STANDARD time, rather than DST. So, after learning the Federal Uniform Time Act, I was in town one night around 11:10PM, DST...which was 10:10 pm, STANDARD time. Sure enough, a town cop stopped me and asked, "What're you doin' out? It's after 11." So I proceeded to quote him the Federal Uniform Time Act, chapter and verse, and explained that, according to Federal law, it was only 10:10 pm. He thought for a moment, then asked me:"Son, see this badge? [I nodded.] See this watch? [I nodded again.] As long as I've got both of 'em, THIS is legal time; now get yer @$$ off the street...NOW, kid!" So much for the actual LAW carrying any weight...it doesn't, if the cop chooses to enforce something different.

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Nolan

10-02-2003 03:14:57




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Depends on the state laws. Here in my state, the police are specifically not bound by many of the laws, on or off duty. Probably a direct correlation with why they are so abusive, and why people hate them so badly. But, the powers that be don't see it that way. :-(



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Indydirtfarmer

10-02-2003 03:04:39




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
I just thought that you might want to know what you MIGHT run up against. On August 1st, I was on my way from one of our farms, to another. I was following my "hired hand", who was in the grain truck. We stopped at a traffic light. The light turned green, and Brent started pulling away. I had just lifted my foot off of the brake, and hadn't even stepped on the gas yet, and BANG! Someone ran into the back of my pick-up. I set in the truck for a minute, to get my "composure". When I got out, the "other" driver was still in his truck. He had this "WAY FAR OFF" look. When he got out of "his" truck, he wanted to know why I was setting in the road, blocking his way. When I explained it was becouse he had run into me, he said he didn't even know that he had hit me. He was going about 30 MPH. Much damage. He kept trying to get back in his truck, like he was planning on leaving. I got on the cell phone, and called 911. When the State police, the county police, and the Local" police got there, I could see them kind of smiling, and shaking their heads at each other. At first, I didn't know what to make of it. One of the cops asked him if he was drinking. He said no. It was obvious this guy was "wasted". After a few minutes, he admitted that he was on "prescription pain pills". He produced a pill bottle, that was for three weeks worth of pain pills, for a back problem. He had picked them up earlier that day. They were all gone. All three weeks worth. Well, the State, and county police left. The "locals" were going to handle it. When the cop writing the report asked the guy his name, he didn't even know it. He tried to spell his last name. He said it was "E-I-E-I-O. WASTED. The police took my info. My truck was "drivable", but just barely. I went on back home, and got another truck. I went on about my daily routine. Four days later, I went to get the police report. I found out that the guy was driving a nieghbors truck, with his permission. The driver had no liscence. He hadn't had one for 20 years. The report listed an insurance company, that turned out to be "made up". It wasn't insured. The report also made mention of the fact that BOTH drivers weren't "impared" in any way. I found out later that the police took the guy home, filed NO charges, and called the owner of the truck, and let him pick up his truck. No questions asked. My insurance repaired my truck. They are filing papers with the state of Indiana, to demand an investigation. It turns out that the driver that hit me, is the nephew of the mayor, of the small town where the wreck was at. Since the wreck, and the "follow-up" investigation, I have been pulled over SIX different times, to check registration, have the truck wieghed, and just to be hassled. I will undergo harrasment for years, just becouse I was UNLUCKY enough to be the one this drugged out "CRIMINAL" decided to run into. If the state does anything to the policeman, or the department, or even the driver that hit me, it'll just get worse. You may be better off to "let it go" I would have been!

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Mel

10-01-2003 21:07:06




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Here in SD our former govenor and now congressman was doing 71 mph on a county road with a posted speed limit of 55. He went through a stop sign and ran into a motorcyle and killed the gentleman. He was not arrested at the scene, it took close to 2 weeks before charges of speeding, failure to stop, reckless driving and manslaughter were brought against him. He pleaded not guilty in his first court appearance and is out on personal bond. In the past he has gotten a number of speeding tickets, changed the law when govenor so that speeding doesn't add points to your driving record, had a number of accidents, had flashing red lights installed on his vehicles so he could speed without getting pulled over. Last summer he joked about his driving record when he was running for congress. It will be interesting to see how he gets out of it. All of us tax payers will pay for the civil lawsuit which is a certanty. He was on goverment business when this happened. There is some law that says they are not liable when on gov. business.

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Bus Driver

10-01-2003 18:36:56




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Good and bad officers. Two retired officers are in my Sunday school class. I had a situation where small town policeman in town about 30 miles away moved out here in the sticks. Commuting to his job. Throwing his weight around here. Built deer stand with working windows and roof- fancy-up in the trees on my property. Never asked me for permission. Law here says $200 automatic fine to hunt without permission. I said nothing to him, but I alerted the local wildlife officer, who also enlisted the officer from an adjoining county and they caught the fellow in the stand- on the morning of the first day of deer season. He does not push others around now.

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Hal/WA

10-01-2003 16:13:11




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Sounds kind of arrogant and nonprofessional, doesn't it? And is this man the elected County Sheriff, or a deputy? And what was the context when he made this statement (I assume that you personally heard him say it)?

While it may be different in different areas, in general cops are required to follow all the laws citizens are subject to and a bunch of rules a citizen does not have. And cops can arrest other cops and can issue traffic citations to other cops. But in practice, this seldom occurs in traffic matters, unless something really serious happens. It is called "professional curtosy" and generally extends to on duty and off duty times. But God help a cop that has an accident in which someone dies or is seriously injured and the officer is found to be at fault and disobeying traffic laws. They will be crucified, and it will probably mean the end of their career. Officers are expected to be in control of their equipment at all times and receive special training in operation of emergency vehicles which includes accident avoidance.

Cops often drive fast, and for many reasons. Cops are also involved in vehicle pursuits, which may be some of the most dangerous time in their lives. Many departments have adopted policies that require officers to discontinue a pursuit after a short time, depending on what caused the pursuit to begin, the area of the pursuit and the potential danger to citizens from the pursuit. Everything a cop does must be justified.....you don't chase the 16 year old that has rolled through a stop sign very long or hard, but you might very well consider chasing an armed, identified bank robber until he wrecks, stops or you have to.

For most cops, traffic enforcement is a minor part of police work and is actually mostly a pain in the rear. As long as people are not placing others in imminent danger, the cops have many other things to do, like fighting REAL crimes and putting the REAL bad guys in jail. Unfortunately most citizens only contact with police is during traffic stops. Naturally some tickets have to be issued for some offenses, but officers using their discretion and just explaining the reason for the stop is usually better public relations and is just as effective.

If this guy is the elected official and drives and acts like an arrogant fool, maybe he needs to find another profession. Probably others have been shocked by his attitude and the next time he comes up for election, he may get voted out of office. If he is not an elected official, then his superiors need to know of his poor judgment, both driving and saying what he said. On the other hand, if what he said could have been an attempt at a joke and he generally does a good competant job as a law enforcement leader, I would just let it ride.

It isn't easy being a cop.

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will marcum

10-02-2003 06:37:16




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 Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce in reply to Hal/WA, 10-01-2003 16:13:11  
This guy is just a kid, in his 20s. He dresses all in black, wears mirrored glasses all the time. I hear him talking to a service man while he was boosting the air pressure in his tires. The service man told him the speed limit is till 65, and that he didn't need that much pressure. The deputy points to his badge and says," no one is going to give me a ticket," and there is only silence. It seems that if you want to do business with the county you keep your thoughts to your self.

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Hal/WA

10-02-2003 21:13:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enfo in reply to will marcum, 10-02-2003 06:37:16  
He sounds like a ROOKIE! They usually grow up after a couple of years or don't stay. Again, if he is not the elected Sheriff of your county, his superiors need to know what he is doing and saying. I would guess that his Sergeant or Lieutenant would have an attitude adjustment session with him that might at least make him think about what he says to the public. If they don't know about a problem, they can't do their supervisory job of dealing with that problem.

Rookies usually have to serve a probation period during which they are constantly evaluated and some recruits don't make their probation for various reasons. The usual reason is that they don't do the job well, and part of doing the job is getting along with the public. The black clothing worries me a little, but lots of officers like the mirrored shades. I wonder if he has watched the movie "Walking Tall" recently. I am assuming that this incident occured when the officer was off duty.

If he is your elected County Sheriff, maybe you have a problem and I really don't know what you should do.....If he does really stupid things that are likely to get the County in a liability situation, the County Commissioners (or whoever handles the Sheriff's Department purse strings) should be notified and maybe they can do something. If he is appointed, the person or board that appointed him should know what is going on.

But if, like I suspect, he is a fairly new officer who foolishly spouted off at the wrong time, I suggest that you let his supervisors know what he said. Watch him and Good Luck.

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mike-nm

10-01-2003 15:01:05




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Where I live-we have at least 2 town police officers who can't pass the nix check (instant check) to buy guns-but the department issues them guns anyway.



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Bret

10-01-2003 13:37:21




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Been a cop for 16 years. It's guys like you speak of that give the rest of us a bad name. Depending on state laws,I would say he's bound by the same law you are except when performing emergency duties. In other words, he has to be able to justify why he does what he does. I assume we're talking Vehicle and Traffic law stuff. I always try to obey the laws for a number of reasons- like because it's the right thing to do, because my neighbors know what I drive and because my agency would glady crucify any member they could. But it all come's back to the simple reason that we are supposed to be the good guys in the white hats, and our character shouldn't let us do the wrong thing on purpose. Mistakes happen, we're only human. But an attitude like you portray is disappointing in the very least.

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Vote!

10-01-2003 07:50:29




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
You have a poor quality officer, not uncommon but a blight to those who do Protect and Serve.
Since he's a county elected offical, VOTE him out, work for the other guy and get your friends to do the same.
As a patrol officer he will not be near as big a jerk.



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dhermesc

10-01-2003 09:49:20




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 Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce in reply to Vote!, 10-01-2003 07:50:29  
I agree, you have a @**hole for a sheriff, they are bound by the same traffic laws as everyone else, unless their emergancy lights are on. Any LEO who says they are not bound by the laws they swear to uphold needs to be bounced out his job.

Local sheriff in Nemaha County Kansas was arrested for DUI WHILE IN HIS PATROL CAR by a highway patrol officer. Sheriff's deputy in Shawnee County was arrested, charged and convicted for running a STOP sign and killing a passing motorist while answering a silent alarm call. He was not using his lights or siren when he ran the intersection.

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Jim Handke

10-01-2003 13:27:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enfo in reply to dhermesc, 10-01-2003 09:49:20  
Are you close to there or live in Nemaha Co.? I live in Doniphan Co. and have heard about those two. Also, police in K.C. have been sued in civil court for killing people in the course of hot pursuits.



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dhermesc

10-02-2003 07:09:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they in reply to Jim Handke, 10-01-2003 13:27:39  
I grew up in Nemaha County, live near Manhattan now. Old Butch Clark had been the sheriff there for 20+ years and decided not to run for reelection after the DUI, later he was talked into running as a write in and still came close to reclaiming his job.



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bill

10-01-2003 07:45:57




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
I'd say he is wrong, but in an article I read years ago about the state police crusing the highways at 80 in a 65...if they stayed with the flow of traffic all they would see is the small group of cars around them. By traveling faster, they can view alot more.

Funny, yes in my hometown (MA) years ago one town cop ticketed another for running a stop sign. The runner slid thru it in a snow storm.

You can imagine what the politics must of been like in the dept back then!

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Fred OH

10-02-2003 05:32:41




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 Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce in reply to bill, 10-01-2003 07:45:57  
Got to ride with a New York road cop once (freeway) and he immediately put the cruiser to 90/100 mph. After a moment I asked "you really run this thing-don't you?" The reply was "third engine this year." I think it was late fall. The car was a Ford. Fred OH



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Indydirtfarmer

10-01-2003 07:13:09




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Police are citizens of the same country, state, and locality as you, and me. They are bound to uphold the law. They are also bound to OBEY the laws. No different than you or me. IF you actually had a policeman say what you quoted, he is not only a bad citizen, but shouldn't be allowed to carry a badge. If you have witness's, and are willing to take on the system, I would contact the States Attorny General, in your state. Let him know what was said, and see what they are willing to do. The bottom line is, the sheriff was just spouting off, unless he actually commited a crime, that you can PROVE. Untill he actually does violate the law, it's all just talk. Then do you feel safe in "bucking the system"? Police should hold themselves to a higher standard. If you heard what you say, I wouldn't want to depend on that officer to "serve and protect" me and my family.

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Buzzman72

10-01-2003 07:09:53




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Technically, they are bound by the laws unless they are in pursuit. But here in Indiana, the only officer with the legal power to arrest a county sheriff is...the county coroner! So, in theory, if the others don't have the authority to arrest him, it's doubtful if they have the authority to ticket him. So if, technically, they ARE bound by the laws, but nobody has the authority to ticket them, then the de facto result is that they are, in essence, above the law...unless they murder someone, in which case the coroner can arrest them.

But laws vary from state to state. What applies here may not apply there. Take it from me, it's not wise to make enemies who wear badges; so, unless you've been victimized by an officer, and can prove it in court, it's probably counterproductive to pursue it...it'll just bite you in the @$$ later on.

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Ed

10-01-2003 10:26:05




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 Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce in reply to Buzzman72, 10-01-2003 07:09:53  
Buzzman, I think you will find that DNR officers as well may arrest the Indiana County Sheriffs. I have seen it happen in Ohio County in the 70's. I didn't know about the coroner.



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Rauville

10-01-2003 09:37:19




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 Re: Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce in reply to Buzzman72, 10-01-2003 07:09:53  
Here in our state a couple of years ago, a County Coroner while driving, crossed four lanes of traffic and struck and killed a man who was walking along the highway. The Coroner than left the scene and proceeded to his office, where he told his secretary that "he thought he had hit a deer". If it wasn't for eye witnesses that had followed his car, and reported the accident, it might have been left at that. As it was he was charged with reckless driving and leaving the scene of a accident...charges which were later dismissed by the court. So, to whom do the laws apply?

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twopop

10-01-2003 07:06:22




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
AS a general rule they are bound by the same laws are everyone else is,with the exception,forinstance,that they dont have to wear seat belts,unless directed to by department chiefs.your sheriff could get a ticket from a state officer.Yeah right,you ever seen that happen.mostly,its the attitude that they are The LAW and are better than he rest of us



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Allan

10-01-2003 07:03:13




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
Will,

He is right and you are right. However, he is carrying a bigger hammer. Humor the old boy.

Allan



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Bob

10-01-2003 06:59:50




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 Re: Are police bound by the laws they enforce ? in reply to will marcum, 10-01-2003 06:52:07  
From what I understand they are bound by the laws unless in persuit. We had a fish and game officer give a highway patrolman a speed ticket in his cruiser one time. It raised quite a stink. The fish and game officer eventually ended up with a tick from the highway patrol about two years later.



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