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OT Electric or Gas furnance.

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Chances R

09-30-2003 16:22:51




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Hi folks. I need to replace the old furnance and A/C unit in our home. I have been kicking around the idea of upgrading my 100 amp service to 200 amp service and going with electric furnance (heat pump).
My A/C guy recomends going all electric do to the gas prices rising. Any thoughts as to why I should not go all electric?? If you are wondering my house was built at or around 1910.




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Nolan

10-02-2003 03:11:58




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
If I had the chance to do it all from scratch right now, I'd go with a sub-soil heat pump, gas backup (because I want gas in the kitchen for cooking).

I used to hate heat pumps, and I'm still not much of a fan of air tranfer types. They have problems with heat transfer in extremely hot weather, or extremely cold weather. I get both here.

But the sub-soil ones, those work great year round. I've got friends that have them, and I'm very impressed with them. In fact, you could probably talk me out of the gas backup with a sub-soil installation just because they never seem to need to kick it on.

Resistance wire electric is god awful expensive. It's dandy for little space heater installations, but you don't want to see how your meter spins if you've got a whole house heated with it.

Radiant in floor heating feels nice. I've had it, and the warm floor is delightful. But it tends to be pricy, and it's slow to warm up the house. Baseboard hot water is far faster at heating the house up, and neither give you blast of warm air to go "ahh" in. And of course leave you looking for a/c in the summer.

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JIMLLL

10-01-2003 20:10:54




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
I plan on remodeling an old house in N W Ark. and have ben reading FINE HOMEBUILDING magazine. It seems that radiant heat in the floors is being heavily promoted. But I wonder if anything is gained as ducts are still required for A/C.????



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Halbert

10-01-2003 21:04:18




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to JIMLLL, 10-01-2003 20:10:54  
Well, you will gain the benefits of the radiant floor heat that they point out. There will be no initial cost benefit, it will actually be additional expense because like you say, you will still need the ducts if installing central air. It would be the same thing if you installed circulating hot water baseboard heat and central air, you would need the plumbing and the ducts. But some people will do it because they don't care for forced hot air heating.

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Red Dave

10-01-2003 05:56:19




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
I have a heat pump/electric backup in a house built in 1990. The heat pump is on it's last legs and I have been pondering the same question.
Right now, I'm leaning strongly toward a gas (propane) furnace and an air conditioner. I even have the yard marked off where I plan to bury the 1000 gallon propane tank.
By my research, it seems that gas (propane) is much more efficient than the heat pump whenever temps get below about 35F. It also seems that there is more heat from a dollars worth of gas than a dollars worth of electricity, (and I work for an electric generating company).
I also believe that electric prices will increase rapidly after 2004, at least in my area.
I am a couple weeks away from digging the hole to bury the tank. I may wait a couple months to install the furnace, just to allow the bank account some recovery time. If I'm ever going to do this, the time to do it is when I'm replacing the system anyway. That time is growing close.

I haven't many complaints about the heat pump, but I want the best efficiency available going forward.
BTW, I'm in southeast Pennsylvania so I suspect that our weather conditions are similar.

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Leroy

10-01-2003 04:36:25




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Consider that when the power goes out and it will that when it does you will be cold because there is no way with any electric heat that you will be able to get around it not working, do generator avaible capable of handling that, I am also trained in refrigeration and in that I learned that if your temp drops below 55 heat pumps do not work



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Les...fortunate

10-01-2003 04:03:41




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
A 200 amp service is a good idea for sure but what are you going to do when the electric prices go up?



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Indydirtfarmer

10-01-2003 02:54:44




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
My "day job" is as maintainance super, at a country club. We have 38 heat pumps. They are water source pumps, with a boiler, a cooling tower, a plate type heat exchanger, two 750 gpm circulation pumps, and a ton of controls. With all that, the individual heat pumps work very much the same as the "air to air" pumps that are used in residential systems. The only difference is ours are more efficient. (Due to a constant temperature water supply, as opposed to variations in the ambiant air temp. that you deal with on air to air) OK, my point is, the ones we deal with work better than normal residential units. And they still don't do such a great job. With outside temperatures of below 30 degree's, or above 95 degree's, they struggle.
(Granted, some of that is becouse our 98 year old building isn't as well insulated as it should be) Heat pumps are great in theory. They work at a low cost MOST of the time. The bulk of the units I have dealt with, in home use, require suplimental heat (Usually electric strip heat in the ductwork). There goes all the "gains" that you made in "savings" with the heat pump. I have one "full time" tech, that does nothing but service the equipment in our building. He has almost 30 years of experience in the HVAC field. He is building a new house at this time. So am I. With more background in the field of HVAC than the average individuals, we are BOTH going with gas, forced air heat,then using conventional air conditioning. My "tech" lives in an urban area. He will have "city gas" (Natural gas). I am building on our farm, which is WAY OUT in the boonies. I will use propane. It's not cheap, but niether is letting your electric heat, or your heat pump run continuously, throughout the colder, and hotter months. Bottom line. Heat pumps may be a little less expensive to operate, but they aren't that much less expensive to install. And when you're all done with the "install", you will have a much more "consistantly comfortable" home with the gas system. JMHO, John

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ed

10-01-2003 06:15:53




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Indydirtfarmer, 10-01-2003 02:54:44  
In my part of the country the electric rates are so high it would cost a fortune to use a heat pump. Oil or Gas forced hot air and normal a/c is the only way to go.

I might even consider hot water but installing the system could be costly retrofit.



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KURT(Mi)

10-01-2003 06:01:46




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Indydirtfarmer, 10-01-2003 02:54:44  
I just built a new house 3 years ago. How far along are you? If you need any pointers let me know. I did most of my house myself except the big stuff like the foundation and the framing.



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Indydirtfarmer

10-01-2003 07:21:57




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 Re: Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to KURT(Mi), 10-01-2003 06:01:46  
I farm and work as a maint. supt. My father farmed and was a building contractor. We built several houses our selves. Every "project" that I ever started, ended up being a "group effort". This house is "mine". I have been running things through my mind for months. I think I have all the bases covered. There will be but a select handful of sub-contractors involved. My wife, and my oldest friend will be in on it too. I appreciate the offer. Now when hay time comes around next summer.....

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KURT (mi)

10-01-2003 02:34:33




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
First question, where in the country do you live. If you live north of the mason dixon line then I would HIGHLY suggest that you use natural gas. Electric is expensive compared to gas and the heat pump would be running continuously to supply 65F degree air into the house. I know that heat pumps in the north are not efficient enough. And the price of electric goes up just like gas.



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Glenn-WV

09-30-2003 20:38:39




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Would like to add that in my experience, electric heat is a very dry heat and you'll likely need to add a humidifier if you put in electric. One of my relatives built a house in an area not served by the gas company. He had to go with electric, and found out in short order that a humidifer was a necessity. My $0.02



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Lew

09-30-2003 20:30:16




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Six years ago I converted from wood (pellets) to a geothermal (ground water) heat pump. Does both ac and heat. No outside components, no chimney and no mess. We keep the temp at 72 in winter and 76 in summer. Located in rural (no natural gas available and 20 acres of land to work with) southwest Wisconsin. With wood pellets it cost about $500 a year to heat and we used fans to cool. With the heat pump the electric bill has increaed just under $200 a year for the last six years as compared to the average of the previous seven years. Our roof is R 40 and the walls are R 19. We have a wood foundation with a wood floor in the basement and R 30 under the basement floor. We heat 1000 sq ft on the first floor and about 700 sq ft in the basement. We get no special discount from the power company as some of my neighbors do from a different power supplier. Your situation needs to be evaluated by your needs and conditions. If your situatuion is similar to mine then a ground water heat pump might be the way, but if you are on city utilities and lack adequate acreage then gas might be a better deal. I would not recommend a conventional heat pump. Insulate all you can and even consider new windows. Keep us posted on your decision. Good luck, Lew Van Vliet, Wisconsin

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MapleStone/Trevor

10-01-2003 05:44:55




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Lew, 09-30-2003 20:30:16  
Lew,

I am surprised to hear someone say that they removed a wood pellet stove/furnace. I put in a pellet stove and love it.

Other than cost is there another reason for getting rid of the pellets?



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Lew

10-01-2003 20:19:23




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 Re: Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to MapleStone/Trevor, 10-01-2003 05:44:55  
Yes there is. Namely it needed to be fed at least once every 36 hours and when I retired I wanted to be able to leave a heated home for several days at a time, leaving no one to feed the stove. It (the pellet stove) now heats a friends workshop and has someone to feed it on schedule. Did you every try cherry pit pellets, corn or paper pellets? Have a good day, Lew



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jls

09-30-2003 20:16:01




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
not even going to read the other posts. YOU WILL NEED THE GAS FOR A BACKUP. heat pumps have a temp range that they work well at and when the temp falls out of that range they quit pumping heat from outside and use regular old electric resistance to heat with. Also heat pumps don't really blow hot air, it is just warm air and by the time it blows thru the ducts it FEELS cool. We ended up running the house 4 degrees warmer on the thermostat just to maintain the same comfort level.I have fuel oil backup and the heat pump is now used for air cond & oil heats the house(with a big wood burner)

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Halbert

10-01-2003 00:17:21




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to jls, 09-30-2003 20:16:01  
A few people here have said they have to keep the thermostat higher with one kind of heat than another. If this is true you most likely have a humidity problem. Let's face it, 70 deg is 70 deg as long as the relative humidity is the same. If the humidity is low, you will feel cooler due to evaporation. The only other possibilities are that you switched the thermostats and they are not calibrated the same, or the thermostats are not located the same relative to the heat source (duct, radiator, basebord element etc.)

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T_Bone

09-30-2003 19:59:55




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Hi chances r,

From Designing HVAC systems for the past 35yrs, Natural Gas is the cheapest heat if considering store bought fuel.

Wood heat beats that if you don't count your labor. This type of heat is unlike any other type as it's the most satisfiying of all heating types. Next is a "true" heat pump. I say true as some try to pass off any AC system with back-up electric stip heaters as a heat hump and it's not. A true HP uses the refrigeration cycle for both heating and cooling by using a refrigerant reversing valve. HP are very efficent to 45* then they drop off rapidly. At about 30* then a back-up source needs to be used, ie electric strip heaters or?. However there are ground soruce HP's that bury a coil in the ground or use well water to suck heat out of. They work well and efficent. HP register temps are about 125* slightly cooler than gas at 140*. I will get complaints from people who came from a natural gas units to HP units saying the registers blow cool air.

Never use electric resistance strip heaters for back-up heat. A pure waste of money.

From here you can get a piggy back unit with natural gas for heat and refrigeration for AC. They work very well and the most cost effective.

On the refrigeration side, only choose a AC unit with a scroll compressor. These compressors are almost non-destructable and last a very long time when comparred to other compressor types. Run from any type of radial compressor no matter what it's on.

Next comes the piggy back LP/AC units. Although not as cheap to orperate as natural gas they come in third in cost.

Electric heating of any kind is just plain expensive. A HP is not electric heating/cooling. Electric is resistance heating just like a electric dryer is.

Now when you compare apples with apples you will not use any other figures than BTU's. Alot of salemen talk all kinds of numbers but there's only two you need to be concerend about. On heating, Cost per therm or 100000btu
On cooling, cost per ton of refeigeration, 12000btu
Add these two numbers together and you get your approx. orperating cost difference between units. There's more too than this but it seperates the sales BS.

You will also see SEER numbers. The higher the number the better.

If they try to use any other numbers you just met a used car saleman!

The last cost study I did is reflected below but keep in mind this was for a specific job and may not reflect your actual oprerating cost numbers but listed as "ball park" figure and only reflected the heating demand:
Natural gas $.34/hr
HP $.44/hr
LP $.85/hr
Electric resistance $2.35/hr

The above numbers was for Phoenix, AZ the most idea weather for a HP. Ground soruce HP's in colder climates will have simular numbers but unit cost becomes a factor thats not included in the above numbers.

T_Bone

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Chances R

09-30-2003 19:13:11




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Thanks for all the comments.
I live in south west Indiana. I am planning on doing the best insulation I can. It sounds to me like gas will be the way to go.



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Ray,IN

09-30-2003 20:15:09




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 19:13:11  
I think you've made a wise decision. I live near the Bloomfield/Bloomington/Spencer area in an all gas powered home; and nearly all the heat pumps installed around me have now switched to gas for a couple of reasons. One, REMC goes off line in the winter several times and it's quite easy to start up a 4kw genset and power up some lights, freezer, fridg, and gas furnace(120VAC things)by tapping in to one side of the main panel. In cold weather a genset must be large to power electric(220VAC,100A) heat. My electricity was off 4 days straight last winter and I used 10 gal gasoline,kept warm,watched TV,food kept as normal, and didn't even know the power was restored until the last night when the security light blinked on. I stopped the genset, threw the double pole double throw disconnect and was back online.

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Paul Janke

09-30-2003 19:50:03




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 19:13:11  
There is a break even point where it is easier to heat with resistance heat than it is to suck more heat out with a heat pump. That point can be given to you by the people who handle heat pumps. About 15 years ago, here in Montana natural gas was half the cost of propane, which in turn was half the cost of electric heat. I don't know since that time.



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49 Cubber!

09-30-2003 18:48:49




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Something else you may want ot consider is baseboard electric.You can turn down one room and turn up anither if you need a little more heat in that room.In my first house I had an electric unit similar to a mobile home unit.Power bill during the winter was around 300 a month.After remodeling the house and new insulation and other improvments I changed to a gas unit,electric AC of course,but the power dropped to less than 75 a month.Added a gad water heater and went even lower,and combined with that,my gas bill was only 60 or 70 bucks a months.That was 8 yrs ago.In my new house,I have electric baseboard heat,hoighest bill I paid last winter was 275.I can turn off one room if I want,in fact I do have a couple cut off most of the winter,except when company comes for Christmas.FI one room is a little chilly I turn up the thermostat in that room only,and if one is too warm Ican turn it down without freezing out the rest of the house.In your older home,you may want to consider it.Just my .02!

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kyhayman

09-30-2003 18:31:47




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Three years ago my gas (propane) furnace went out. I had to do a full replacement of the air handler too so I could have put in a new heat pump for the same (or slightly less) $$ as replacing the gas furnace. I also love in an are with the second lowest electrical rates in the US. I got another propane furnace. I have had houses with heat pumps, forced air electric, and baseboard. I love my propane! With a pulse gas furnace at 80% efficiency I just barely used the 600 gallons I have to use to not rent my tank. Electric bill is currently $55/ month (year round budget plan) gas costs me $1.29 per gallon. The heat quality can not be beaten (and my spouse keeps the thermostat way too high in the winter). She likes it 75 year round (without the gas she liked it on 80 with electric.

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MarkB

09-30-2003 18:25:25




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Without knowing where you live, it's impossible to say if a heat pump is a good idea. Also, "heat pump" covers a lot of territory. I assume you're talking about a standard unit that looks like a central air conditioner. There's a big difference in the efficiency of one of these units and one of the high-priced systems that use buried piping or well water as a heat sink/heat source.

With regards to the rising gas prices, what your A/C guy forgot to mention is why gas prices are going up. Demand for gas is going up because almost all new electric generating plants are gas turbines. It's a lot more efficient to deliver gas to your home and burn it there than to deliver it to a generating plant, burn it to generate power and send the power over transmission lines to your home. That's why it will ALWAYS be cheaper to heat with natural gas than with a heat pump.

Now if you use propane rather than natural gas, the cost difference between a heat pump and a furnace is not nearly as great. But it's still going to be cheaper to use propane in most parts of the country.

I had a house in coastal North Carolina that I heated with a heat pump. Actually, that's not quite true: I heated the house with a kerosene heater, because the heat pump did not deliver comfortable heat. If the auxiliary heat is off, the air coming out of the ducts is only a few degrees warmer than room air, so it feels like there's a cold draft going through the room. When the aux heat kicks on, it feels more comfortable but it really makes the meter spin.

Seriously, if you have natural gas coming into your home, install one of the new high efficiency gas furnaces and you'll have no regrets.

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ErnieD

09-30-2003 18:20:37




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
My heat pump and electric resistance heat draws 100 amp (measured) on a 125 branch breaker. The heat coming out is not much unless you are on the third bank of resistance. No gas on our street, got an all electric house w/2x200 amp breakers. Would consider oil w/ electric heat pump at replacement time. We have two fire places for back up heat and a generator that would run the heat pump, but not the resistance.

A pellet stove w/inverter would be a dandy back up, but I understand they require frequent cleaning. As a teenager I cut wood for a wood furncace, 1 cord a week, then split and carry and load. Now I am not too anxious to repeat that part of youth.

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PAQ

09-30-2003 18:04:22




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
There was a builder around here that put in a lot of heat pumps 20 years ago. I think that all of them where replaced within five or ten years with standard oil or gas equipment. They just don't make it in Massachusetts. It is allways more efficient to burn fuel on site than to convert to electricity and transmit. It will allways cost more per BTU to use electric heat. It will only be OK after we build a lot more Nukes and electricity is "to cheap to meter".

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Cosmo

09-30-2003 17:42:30




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Here in good ol' South Georgia my heat pump works fine in a good tight well insulated house. We have very few nights in the 20's, but when the temp drops below the low 30's the auxillary heat strips come on and the electric meter goes into passing gear. I believe you would be disappointed with a heat pump's performance at your latitude. Just two more cents worth.



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bob

09-30-2003 18:04:10




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Cosmo, 09-30-2003 17:42:30  
NEVER go all one way; as soon as you do, the other will develope new technology making it cheaper, more effiecent, etc. Go both ways so you stay flexible, which helps when you sell & are not tied to the high priced energy source.



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RayP(MI)

09-30-2003 17:16:32




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 Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to Chances R, 09-30-2003 16:22:51  
Typically gas costs less to heat with than electricity. Heat pumps are perhaps more efficient than straight electric heat. HOWEVER there are a lot of factors you haven't given us... Where are you located? What are the heating/cooling requirements? Can you live if you loose power from time to time? What is the likelihood that you'll loose power for a protracted time? Typical 1910 homes are devoid of insulation, how's yours? Consider upgrading any insulation you may have! Like I said, Lots of factors. Here in Michigan, I'm not seeing many heat pumps - when it's below zero, there isn't much heat to pump!

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steveormary

10-01-2003 10:18:55




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 Re: Re: OT Electric or Gas furnance. in reply to RayP(MI), 09-30-2003 17:16:32  
For Red Dave. You can bury a propane tank??

Several years ago wood furnace went bad. Had elect. furnace as standby. Former owner had it set up like this. The air handler was also used for central air. Got to figuring. The elect.furnace drew 22 kw when on. Figured up cost of cove heaters. These mount on the wall just below the ceiling. They would operate on less kw then the elect.furnace. Installed the cove heters and as someone said,you also need a good humidifier. Was in the process of looking for a good wood stove for the basement when we decided to sell out and move south. Looked into heat pumps but they were too costly.

steve

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