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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Question about what happens when the throttle clos

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Ron

09-09-2003 13:02:15




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I understand that the engine operates at it's full compression pressure at Full throttle....

Then, when the throttle closes for Idle---is it not then operating at a greatly Reduced compression pressure..?? Then, arent we actually changing the compression of the mixture to control engine speed..?? I wonder what effective compression pressure an old "all-fuel" tractor runs on at Idle...!!! Maybe a ratio of 2-1..??? Could BE..!!! Ron.

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buickanddeere

09-10-2003 14:15:20




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 Re: Question about what happens when the throttle in reply to Ron, 09-09-2003 13:02:15  
That's one of the reasons for vacuum spark advance. When the combustion chamber is only partly filled, flame speed is reduced.



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Jerry/MT

09-09-2003 15:25:43




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 Re: Question about what happens when the throttle in reply to Ron, 09-09-2003 13:02:15  
Ron, I'm not sure I understand your question either, but I'll risk answering what I think you are asking. If it's a normally aspirated spark ignition engine (carbretor of fuel injection) the basic contol parameter for power is airflow since the engine will only run over a narrow range of fuel to air ratios. The compression ratio is fixed and is limited to mainly by the fuel to be used. (Typical range of modern compresion ratios, Vol @ TDC/Vol @BDC, is in the range of 8-9) When we open the throttle plate wide open at any given rpm, at constant ambient pressure and temperature, the air pressure (not vacuum)in the manifold ahead of the intake valves is a maximum and the airflow is a maximum for that rpm. Therefore the power is maximum for that rpm. Conversely, at idle rpm, the throttle plate is nearly closed, the pressure is at a minuimum and, (for constant ambient pressure and temperature)and the power is at a minimum.
In a diesel engine, there is no throttle plate and the mode of control is fuel to air ratio. The compression ratio is fixed and in my 4610 I believe it is about 16 or 17:1. The pressure in the intake manifold ahead of the intake valves is almost constant across the entire range of rpm (It actually is a minumum at max power due to pressure losses in the intake passages but we are talking relatively small losses not like that imposed by the throttle plate in a spark ignition engine.)To achieve maximum power at any given rpm with constant ambient conditions, we add the maximum amount of fuel that is limited usually by temperature (we don't want to fry the top of the piston) cooling requirements and/or stregth and load considertions). At idle, the rpm is low, the airflow is low and the fuel flow is low, giving us a low fuel to air ratio. At max power, the rpm is high, the airflow is high and the fuel flow is high and the fuel/ air ratio is high.
Hope this helps.

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Jerry/MT-Another Point

09-09-2003 19:19:59




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 Re: Re: Question about what happens when the throt in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-09-2003 15:25:43  
Another point regarding this discussion. In a spark ignition engine, the peak temperature is approximately constant for all powers (for fixed ambient conditions) while in a compression ignition engine (i.e. a diesel, the temperature varies with the fuel /air ratio. That's why it's difficult to warm up a cold diesel while just idling.



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Jerry/MT

09-09-2003 15:31:21




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 Re: Re: Question about what happens when the throt in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-09-2003 15:25:43  
Opps Got the inverse of the compression ratio in my reply. The definition should be Vol @BDC/Vol @TDC since Vol@BDC is > Vol @TDC and compression ratios are always > 1. Sorry about that.



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Jerry?MT

09-09-2003 15:30:26




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 Re: Re: Question about what happens when the throt in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-09-2003 15:25:43  
Opps Got the inverse of the compression ratio in my reply. The definition should be Vol @BDC/Vol @TDC since Vol@BDC is > Vol @TDC and compression ratios are always > 1. Sorry about that.



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Jon H

09-09-2003 15:19:21




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 Re: Question about what happens when the throttle in reply to Ron, 09-09-2003 13:02:15  
You are correct,when you restrict throttle opening you get much less air in the cylinder to compress. There is a reason they tell you to take a compression test with the throttle wide open. An engine that has say 170 psi cylinder pressure at wide open throttle will have only aprox 30-50 psi cylinder pressure with the throttle closed to slow idle position. This is about the lower limit for a sparkplug to ignite the mixture and burn efficiency is terrible,this is why idling fuel economy is terrible. Notice how the newer cars are geared very high to make 60 mph at as low as 1500 rpm? This is for better fuel efficiency. If you lug the engine at very low rpm you can get much better cylinder filling, which makes for higher cylinder pressure at part throttle and better fuel economy.

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Rob

09-09-2003 14:22:38




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 Re: Question about what happens when the throttle in reply to Ron, 09-09-2003 13:02:15  
Are you talking gas, diesel or something like the old IHC's that started on gas and switched to diesel? Engine speed is controlled by throttle opening in both gas and diesels (but for different reasons) and has nothing directly to do with cylinder pressure. I'm not sure what you're asking. I think you might be confusing compression "pressure" with compression "ratio". Pressure is what you get using a compression tester gauge. It's somewhere around 150-175 psi in gas engines. Compression ratio is swept to unswept volume or the volume inside the cylinder and combustion chamber @ bdc versus the volume @ tdc. It's the ratio (e.g. 20:1) of those volumes. Diesels have much high ratios in order to cause the fuel to ignite due to the high heat caused by the compression. This effect in gas engines is pre-detonation or pinging. Now I'm confused!

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