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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

A couple of definitions please

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Texas Jay

09-06-2003 07:36:16




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What exactly is a "row crop" tractor? Does that refer to the front axle configuration?
Too, what is "live pto" or"live hydraulics"? (I think I've got those straight or am I confused?)
Thanks fellers.




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john

09-07-2003 05:41:18




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 Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Texas Jay, 09-06-2003 07:36:16  
NOW YO ALL GOT ME CONFUSSED AND I THOUGHT I KNEW THIS ANSWER!!!!! !!!!!
1) ROW CROP TRACTOR--- some call a climb up on tractor with a platform a row crop. but I have seen a tractor like this with out adjustable axles. would not make a very good row crop.To me a row crop has adjustable axels to fit between various size rows and added ground clearance.
2) LIVE PTO & HYD--- If you can sit with tractor in gear and foot on clutch and pto & hyd still work it is live no matter if it is independent or not.If you have to take it out of gear and release clutch for the pto to work it is not live.
3) Totally independent pto is just a added feature. (like a CD player in your radio. has nothing to do with the what radio stations it will pick up.) LET THE ARGUMENTS BEGIN!!!!!
GUESS IT HAS TO DO WITH WHAT STATE YOU ARE FROM!!
JOHN IN LA.

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Dave Wilcox

09-06-2003 19:02:16




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 Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Texas Jay, 09-06-2003 07:36:16  
Mike is right on the PTO explanation If the two stage cluch isn't called live , what is it?? Independent is totally independent like the Cockshutt.



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Adam B.

09-06-2003 21:04:46




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 Re: Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Dave Wilcox, 09-06-2003 19:02:16  
I've actually seen the 'modern' versions referred to as independent, live PTO. If you apply both terms to it, that indicates different meanings.

In my mind, 'live' should refer to a PTO that gets engine power directly, not from the transmission. 'Independent' should refer to a PTO system that has its own clutch and can be operated independently from the transmission (even if its not live, as described above). Those are just my definitions. They may not be accurate, and they may add more confusion to the topic. Consider them at your own risk.


Row-crop was already defined, I can't add anything extra to what's been said.

Live hydraulics. I believe this is related to the live PTO concept. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure some early hydraulic systems were driven from the transmission, like the PTO shaft was. So, there wouldn't be hydraulic power unless the tractor was moving, or sitting in neutral with the clutch engaged. If you had a loader on the tractor, you wouldn't be able to push the clutch pedal to stop the tractor while you raise the loader because you'd lose hydraulic power. You'd have to put the transmission in neutral and release the clutch pedal to have hydraulic power while stationary.

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Rob

09-06-2003 08:12:00




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 Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Texas Jay, 09-06-2003 07:36:16  
"Live PTO" means it operates independently of the main tractor drive. In other words, you can turn it on or off while in motion. This was not always the case. I remember as a kid running a W4 or W6 on a square baler and in heavy crop if you needed to go slower you'd have to depress the clutch, take the tractor out of gear, and let out the clutch again - all before you plugged the baler.



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Mike (WA)

09-06-2003 16:48:44




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 Re: Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Rob, 09-06-2003 08:12:00  
This will probably start an argument- but around here, "live" PTO means two-stage clutch (halfway in stops the tractor, all the way in stops the PTO- so you can depress clutch halfway when baler gets into heavy stuff to stop forward motion of tractor but leave PTO running to clear the machine). "Independent" PTO is a separate lever entirely- so operation of PTO is independent of the foot clutch. Most modern tractors (and old Olivers, Cockshutts, IH from early 60's, etc.) are independent- its a little easier to use, mainly because you don't have to overcome your tendency to "nail" the clutch to the floor(thereby shutting everything down and plugging the baler) in heavy going. Also, you can engage and disengage the PTO while you're underway, which is sometimes handy if you're travelling between windrows, around the ends of headlands while mowing, etc.

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JMS/MN

09-07-2003 22:45:14




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 Re: Re: Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Mike (WA), 09-06-2003 16:48:44  
Live hydraulics are also available without a two-stage clutch. The AC WD, WD45, D series used a hand clutch to provide live pto and hydraulics. The foot clutch provided for shifting of the transmission. During that same era, other manufacturers used a two-stage clutch to provide live pto, while Farmall and others had independent pto (separate clutch), and direct engine drive for hydraulic power. To further confuse: all independent pto and hydraulics are live, but not all live are independent! Independent means they are driven directly off the engine- irregardless of any foot clutch operation that stops forward or reverse motion of the tractor.

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Alberta Mike

09-06-2003 17:40:10




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 Re: Re: Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Mike (WA), 09-06-2003 16:48:44  
No doubt you are correct with what we'd call "modern" definitions, however the actual phrase "LIVE" power takeoff was coined by a Canadian by the name of Ivan MacRae, an engineer at Cockshutt here in Canada. He was the actual originator of the modern "live PTO" concept on any line of mass-produced tractors and he first put his ideas to paper in April of 1945. There were "live" PTO's earlier (at that time the definition being limited to a PTO that was not dependant on the clutch being engaged) but not ones that snaked their way through the transmission and rear end like MacRae's idea. Anyways, it is always an interesting topic and discussion, just thought I'd share that bit of tractor history with you.

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Bob

09-06-2003 17:29:56




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 Re: Re: Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Mike (WA), 09-06-2003 16:48:44  
I agree with Rob's definition, although in the early days what we now call independant pto was refered to as "Live". Now for some more confusion. Some companies define a rowcrop tractor as one with a flat operator's platform, as opposed to a utility tractor, which has adjustable tread width but the driver stradles the transmission case.



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RustyFarmall

09-06-2003 07:56:33




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 Re: A couple of definitions please in reply to Texas Jay, 09-06-2003 07:36:16  
Row crop means that the wheels can be adjusted in or out so that the tractor wheels will travel in between the rows of corn, soybeans, etc. It can have either a wide front axle, which is also adjustable, or a narrow front with 2 wheels, or a single front wheel. A standard tread, or wheatland style tractor will have fixed, non adjustable, front and rear axles.



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