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How does battery ignition work?

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steve

05-01-2003 07:12:27




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How does electricity flow between the condenser, points and coil to send a spark to the distributor? I understand that the coil is a transformer and the condenser is a capacitor, but I don't understand the circuit. I'm talking specifically about battery ignition systems. Any insight is greatly appreciated.




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bill b va

05-01-2003 13:34:58




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 Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to steve, 05-01-2003 07:12:27  
more on the purpose of the condenser. when the points open the magnetic field in the coil collapses inducind voltage in the secondary windings of the coil . at the same time the condenser charges and DISCHARGES back through the primary windings with a reverse current that speeds up the collapse the of magnetic field and induces a much higher secondary voltage



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RAB

05-02-2003 13:07:04




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 Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to bill b va, 05-01-2003 13:34:58  
Steve, Agree it might help, but only in lengthening the spark duration a bit. The small capacity of the condensor is insufficient to add too much energy to the spark. The inductive energy of the coil far exceeds the capacive energy. I believe the early capacitive discharge electronic systems used about 1 to 1.5 joules - about 50 times the capacity of the condensor at full rated voltage?
Regards, RAB

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Vern-MI

05-01-2003 09:41:54




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 Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to steve, 05-01-2003 07:12:27  
The coil is really a transformer. Transformers only work when there is a cycling input or alternating input. The primary (6 or 12 volt) side has fewer windings than the secondary (high voltage) side. When the points open the primary field collapses and induces a current in the secondary side which causes a spark to ground on the secondary side. Since power is power (watts) the secondary side has a higher voltage but a lower current than the primary side. The system cannot boost power but instaed the power remains the same on both sides of the coil. My 2 cents.

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John

05-01-2003 09:19:25




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 Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to steve, 05-01-2003 07:12:27  
I think the site Simpletractors.com can send you to a decent site.



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Sam#3

05-01-2003 08:19:48




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 Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to steve, 05-01-2003 07:12:27  
Like you say the breaker point systems are comprised of four major components.
A source of electronic force(generator, alternator or battery), a switch(the breaker points), a step up transformer(coil) and a contact protection device(capacitor). The fixed side of the points are(usually) the negative most connection in the system. The operating side of the points are connected to one side of the primary winding of the coil. The other end of the coil winding is connected(usually) to the positive side of the system. The capactior is connected across the points. When the point contacts close two things happen; the capacitor is shorted and current flows thru the contacts and coil and establishes an electro-magnetic field in the coil. As the distributer rotates and the point contact opens the magnetic field collapes and induces a field into the secondary winding of the coil and attempts to discharge across the point contact. This is the arc that causes the points to erode. The capacitor(which is not now shorted) begins to charge absorbing most(but not all) of the discharge. The secondary winding is connected, via the large high voltage lead, to the distributer cap. The high voltage lead connects to the rotor. As the rotor turns the pin on the rotor passes by the pins in the cap. These pins connect to the spark plugs. If all the parts are in alignment the plug should receive a momentary pulse of about 10-15k volts.

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alex dabiri

03-30-2004 11:31:03




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 Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to Sam#3, 05-01-2003 08:19:48  
i have a massey ferguson 50. the generator (12 volt) works sometimes not other times. it quits running when the generator stops sending current. and i can tell that by lifting the batery terminals off the batter (it quits). is there any way to find out if the problem is in the generator, the voltage regulator or where?



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RAB

05-01-2003 12:46:50




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 Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to Sam#3, 05-01-2003 08:19:48  
Nearly right.
The coil primary (coil energy) will try to discarge thru the points as the magnetic flux generated by the interruption of the primary current(points opening). This may be of the order of a few hundred volts, but enough to arc at the points and transfer metal from one point to the other. The condensor is there to prevent this happening until the points are far enough apart so the air gap (high resistance) is able to resist the arc - just a few thou. is required. That is all the condensor does, but it is very important as it stops the points burning and prevents energy loss from the coil primary back through the points. The voltage spec. of this component is probably in the region of 500V. The secondary coil produces a step up voltage of around 15k, enough to jump a spark plug gap easily. It may be worth noting that the current build in a coil is exponential - means the current increase in the coil winding produces a magnetic field which in turn resists that increase in current (takes a long time relatively to get to Ohm's law current) and so the points are designed to stay closed for as long as possible (dwell angle) to maximise the energy in the coil. This is not so important for tractors at, say, 2000rpm but for a V8 at 6000rpm it is very important!(thats one reason why elctronic systems were first introduced)
Sorry for such along post - the Ketteringham system was a masterpiece in its time, but is probably long past its sell by date now.
Regards, RAB

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Steve

05-02-2003 05:49:35




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 Re: Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to RAB, 05-01-2003 12:46:50  
Thanks for the info. It's helping, but I still have more questions . . .
I understand your point about the inductance of the coil and the time constants for current build-up. So, current is building in the primary side of the coil when the points are closed. What is happening on the secondary side of the coil when the points are closed? How about when the points open? I gather that a spark should never jump across the points. Is this correct?

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RAB

05-03-2003 02:37:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to Steve, 05-02-2003 05:49:35  
Steve,
Any change in current/magnetic flux will induce a 'sympathetic' reaction in any other coil to which it is coupled. It is just a matter of how fast the magnetic flux changes. High rates of current change in the primary induce more volts in the secondary than slower rates. So any change of current in the primary will induce an opposing voltage in the secondary but any current flow is limited!, this in turn creating some magnetic flux which will affect the primary. It would not matter a bit were the primary current to rise (almost) to maximum, as even the rate of current change in the primary is now very small.
When the points open the primary current (at 12 volts)is stopped, so there is a very high rate of flux change in the coil(s). The primary will produce a much lower voltage than the secondary (turns ratio) but will dissipate a lot or all of energy accross the points if given the opportunity. This is where the condensor comes into use - it prevents an arc while the points are only just apart ( once you get an arc it would spark even at full points opening due to the air being highly ionised) and effectively do an electric welding job on the points! Yes, just like a stick welder - you have to make contact between electrode and item to be welded, then you can 'draw' the arc and weld away quite happily!
Meanwhile the high voltage in the secondary is just busting to jump anywhere it can, and accross the appropriate spark plug is where we allow it to take the easiest path, by means of the distributor.
Now just for a moment consider what would happen if current were flowing accross the points gap - change in current = change in flux so reducing flux available in the secondary.....
All these are going on in a fantastically short period of time, but basically the energy will take the easiest path and anything which doesn't go to the spark will (a) be lost and (b) will actively reduce the likliehood of ever reaching spark plug potential in the secondary.
Sorry but there are so many things to consider, all at the same instant, that it can easily get muddled. Generally like all electronics, if there is a factor of 10 difference the less likely option can be ignored, so some of the above arguments can be ignored - unless the system is much less than 100% efficient - which is when the faults show up clearly.
Your other question about sparks at the points - theoretically there should never be sparks at the points, practically there will be, but high voltage spikes, not welding currents we hope!
Regards, RAB

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steve

05-04-2003 18:57:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to RAB, 05-03-2003 02:37:58  
Thank you for taking the time to explain. I definitely understand what's taking place now.



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Bigdog

05-01-2003 07:30:18




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 Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to steve, 05-01-2003 07:12:27  
As basic as I can describe it: The points are a switch making and breaking which causes a pulsating current flow through the primary side of the coil. This current flow creates a magnetic field which induces a voltage into the coil secondary windings. Because of the ratio of windings of the primary and secondary sides of the coil, a small voltage (pulsating 12 volts DC) becomes a high voltage in the secondary. Without the opening and closing of the points, there would be only the initial spike of voltage. It is the opening and closing of the points repeatedly that makes this work. The condensor is wired across the points to reduce the arcing that would occur as the points open under load. The current flows into the capacitor instead of across the point gap.

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Ben in KY

05-01-2003 08:07:27




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 Re: Re: How does battery ignition work? in reply to Bigdog, 05-01-2003 07:30:18  
Steve, you pretty much have it right. The spark is generated when the points open and the magnetic field generated by the 12V flowing thru the coil primary winding collapses. This magnetic field collapse generates a high voltage spike out of the coil secondary winding which is connedted thru the rotor button and wire to the spark plug. The capacitor is there to prevent the feedback from this collapse from burning the points.

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