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Discussion Forum

$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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gy3020

08-21-2002 06:50:58




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Hey everyone, I know I mentioned something about this subject here while back but I thought it would be worth mentioning again. I just looked through a issue of Fastline and noticed some of the prices for some new tractors adn also used ones. Anyone else feel like we are getting it put too us when we want to get something new. The way things look I may not ever get to run a new piece of equipment, with all of the crap they are putting on them I'm not really sure I would want too though. Whats wrong with keeping farm equipment simple and affordable. Parts prices are way out of hand as well.

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JohnnyB

08-21-2002 20:03:06




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 Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-21-2002 06:50:58  
I'll agree with you on the parts prices, local Hesston dealer wanted $127.00 for a 60 tooth sprocket for my round baler, found the same thing in the Mcmaster Carr catalog for $56.77.



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Bob

08-21-2002 14:20:11




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 Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-21-2002 06:50:58  
The truth is there is a lot of good simple new equipment out there at a reasonable prices. If you look at some of the prices asked here for 15-25 year old equipment and much of it junk ask yourself intend to work it or keep it in the barn. If your going to work it you'll be a lot better off with later models. You may also get the benefit of a warranty (as it may be) and the ability to use current equipment designs without modifications. Do what you will because each has his own needs and its up to the individual........

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paul

08-21-2002 23:30:03




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 Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Bob, 08-21-2002 14:20:11  
Farm equipment made in the late 60s - 70s still had good engineering, modern pto & hydraulics, and a good solid long-lasting construction.

Today's machinery & tractors have too much plastic, too much electronics, and too much over-engineering to make them long-term machines. They need to be used up, high-hours per year, and traded off again in 10 years.

Give me the older stuff.

--->Paul



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gy3020

08-21-2002 19:13:42




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 Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Bob, 08-21-2002 14:20:11  
Hey Bob,
Just a footnote here, if I had a choice, I would much rather run the 15 to 25 year old equipment as I had the new stuff and I do. It was made much better and for the most part a good portion of it is still working today. Can we say that for a new tractor today 25 years from now. Good chance those that are 15 to 25 years old will still be working then too.



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rhudson

08-21-2002 13:51:17




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 Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-21-2002 06:50:58  
My cousin (the rich one) purchased a new holland with the works about a year and a half ago. has had multiple problems with it. mostly to do with "car like" stuff (ignation switch, ac switches, rubbing of ac and hydraulic houses to the point of leaking, safety switchs that fail. my 1970 JD 1020 is way more reliable (knock on wook)

it got to him the last time i was over to help him run some fence and we had to go get a 70's model ford tractor to pull his 2000 model tractor out of the path.

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gy3020

08-21-2002 19:18:05




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 Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to rhudson, 08-21-2002 13:51:17  
There ya go! Gotta love that old iron. Newer tractors with all the bells and whistles may be nice and shiney but do we really need a computor and global positioning and radar to tell us how to farm? New tractors shouldn't cost what they do either. A 66 model 4020 Deere diesel, with wide front was bought new by my local competition and ran 6500.00 from what they told me. I bought the tractor from another party and was the third owner of it is how I know, now what would one cost today?

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G-MAN

08-22-2002 06:11:59




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 Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-21-2002 19:18:05  
That's a very interesting comment. I once spoke to an engineer that was involved in tractor production at Waterloo. I mentioned building the 4020 again and how they wouldn't be able to keep up if they did. His comment was that if the 4020 were produced today just as it was back then, mostly by hand, it would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $65,000 retail. Guess what a 90 hp tractor sells for today - around $65,000. The price of everything goes up - raw materials, overhead, employee wages and insurance, etc. Would you want to do your job for the same money that someone did it for in 1966? I didn't think so. The new electronics make today's tractors much more efficient and generally more reliable than those of 40 years ago. Ever worked on the 12/24 volt starting system of some of the New Generations? We tend to forget that these old tractors had problems of their own in their day. It's nice to remember the old days and wish to relive them, but also remember how much harder farm work was back then before all these more modern machines came along. Tractors are no different than cars, TVs, computers or whatever else - people will always want and buy the latest and greatest.

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gy3020

08-22-2002 12:21:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G-MAN, 08-22-2002 06:11:59  
I agree that things do go up, but I find it very hard to believe that if a 4020 were built today like it was then it would run $65,000.00(roughly). Sounds like th engineer may have been trying to push the newer products. I do have 2 new generation tractors a 64 model 3020 and a 65 model 4020 and the 3020 is converted to a 12 volt system and the 4020 will be this winter. For my money and I think you will find a good percentage of users think the same way, keep the dang electronics off of things so the average joe who wants to work on his own stuff can do so. I do hope no one takes any offense about any of these statements, none is intended. Just thoughts on how to make agricutulture more profitable for everyone, not just the dealers.

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G-MAN

08-22-2002 13:13:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-22-2002 12:21:20  
I certainly haven't been upset by any of the comments made. I was just trying to point out that inflation happens to every product. Look how much the price of a new car or pickup has risen in the last 40 years and I'm betting that you will find it pretty much mirrors how the price of tractors has gone up. And, there are certainly features on cars that a lot of people find copletely unnecessary, but still pay for. My point in the 4020 reference, and I believe that a 4020 would cost that much today, was that those tractors were largely built by hand. I'm assuming that the average worker in Waterloo today is probably making in the neighborhood of $20 per hour or even more, compared to maybe $5 or less in 1966, which was good money then. Tractors today are largely mass produced and are very quickly assembled. Think of what a new tractor would cost if it were assembled by hand at today's labor rates and overhead. $400,000? A lot of times it does make more sense to upgrade to new or at least newer equipment than to repair the old. I just put around $4,000 in a real rough old 4620 that is probably only worth around that, given it's condition. And that didn't even come close to fixing everything that was wrong with it. I can't fault the customer for deciding to do that, because it's his money, but he could have sold the tractor, saved on the repair bill, tossed in another $5000 or so and had a pretty decent 4440 out of the deal. To each their own. I have nothing against old iron, because I make a lot more money working on old stuff throughout the year than anything 5 years old or newer.

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gy3020

08-22-2002 15:06:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G-MAN, 08-22-2002 13:13:31  
Thats cool I'm glad no offense was taken, this is after all a friendly helping forum and I enjoy it very much. You have some real good points, I think I'm just having a bad day this week! :o)
Whats your opinion on overhauling a steering valve on a 64 model 3020? Mine is leaking like a sift and will have to get it gone through very soon. I'm going to have to go through the synchronizers as well this winter, how tough a job is that and is it something that I can do myself? I do have a shop to get it in. Will put a new clutch in as well.

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G-MAN

08-22-2002 15:46:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-22-2002 15:06:09  
Those steering valves can be a real bear to get right. You will definitely need a service manual, a good dial indicator and the proper special tool to set it correctly. There are four critical valve adjustments and they are adjusted to .001" and .003", so accuracy is a must for the valve to work properly. We have a set-up here at the dealership that allows us to bench test those valves using another tractor's hydraulic system to verify that they are in fact working properly before reinstallation. If you decide to tackle it yourself, see if your dealer can test it for you before reinstallation. I sure wouldn't blame you if you wanted them to do it, and you could still take it out and carry it in to save some time and labor dollars. I did one on a 4620 a few weeks ago, and since it had been several years since I did the last one, I was pleasantly surprised when it worked correctly the first time.
The synchronizers are a little more involved to get to than the steering valve, but generally easier to repair. Once again, make sure you have some good splitting stands and the proper manual. You will also need some type of hoist or cherry picker to remove the rockshaft housing so you can get to the rear bearing retainer/trans pump. Nothing really technical, just some heavy parts and a few clearances and torque specs that need to be paid attention to. The clutch will also be fairly straightforward, as long as you get the proper tool for adjusting the fingers. I strongly suggest replacing the rear crank seal, pilot bearing, etc as this is cheap insurance while you're right there. Also, take care when taking the steel hydraulic lines loose on your tractor. Most of them will probably require some heat on the nut to get them apart without damaging them. They're all still available, but there's no since buying new if you can salvage the old ones. A good coating of anti-sieze on the threads and pipes will help make any future repairs much easier. Good luck with the 3020 and email me with any questions you may have.

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gy3020

08-22-2002 20:47:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G-MAN, 08-22-2002 15:46:59  
Thanks for the advice, I sure do appreciate it. I think I may order a rebuilt valve for the 3020 and just do a change out. I sure do need to get her back in the hay field. Could adjustments on the rods going from the shifter to the levers on the trans case help with the shifting? Sometimes she is a bear to get in gear, often requiring throttling down real low. I know she is in need of some work, just hate to let go of that $$$$$$$$.

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G-MAN

08-23-2002 08:51:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-22-2002 20:47:23  
Determining the condition of the shifter and the shift linkage is definitely the first thing to do when dealing with this problem on a New Generation tractor. You'll also want to check the end play of the shifter shafts in the case. Your service manual will lay out the adjustments and other items to check, as these items are much easier to check and repair than going into the trans. If it's been grinding going into gear, you still may have some synchro troubles there. Deere offers a kit that contains the parts necessary to rebuild the synchros on those tractors.

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gy3020

08-23-2002 11:36:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G-MAN, 08-23-2002 08:51:15  
Appreciate it! Are the kits to rebuild the syncros hard to put in or is it something that would best be left to a regular mechanic? Would the IT shop manual be a good source of direction. I know I have looked through adn on some things found they said to do things that didn't need to be done? Do you make house calls! :o)



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G Taylor...stuck

08-22-2002 03:23:43




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 Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-21-2002 19:18:05  
Most people tend to have a favorite set of years from thier prime when the music, sports teams, tv shows, politics,vehicles and machinery were the best. Tends to be about when they were at thier physical peak too. Do you still drive a 1966 car and pickup, watch a black and white tv, listen to a tube radio, listen to 45 rpm records, wear a wind up watch,listen to reel to reel tapes,wife wear garters with her pantihose, build a house with no insulation, two prong electical plugs,coal heating, no air conditioning, plaster walls instead of dry wall,etc.

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gy3020

08-22-2002 12:25:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G Taylor...stuck, 08-22-2002 03:23:43  
Good point, I'm not really trying to downplay progress but alot of what I see as progress is worse than things I can remember from say 20 years ago. Things were made to last adn too be good, now days seems like a good portiion of things are just throw away, cars, trucks and so on. The manufacturors are playing this for all its worth and that may or may not be a bad thing but seems like the main point of this disscussion has been overlooked.

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TP from Central PA

08-22-2002 15:20:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-22-2002 12:25:48  
I run tractors from '51 to '62 and equipment from the late 1800's(an old horse drawn hay tedder) to mid '70's square baler......I like my old stuff! easy to fix and built way more rugged. No plastic and electrical garbage to go wrong... I also run a '69 chevy pick-up, a trail bike from the late '60's and other old goodies....The only thing that I don't like to grow old is my computer!

But......as they say everyone has an opinion! Oh, I would buy new, but we can't afford it!

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Richard

08-21-2002 09:11:09




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 Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to gy3020, 08-21-2002 06:50:58  
Most the farmers who buy new around here are farming around 2000 acre's or more. I work with all used tractors, but on occasion have bought new implements. Oh yeah, I did buy a new garden tractor.



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Tommy Boy in PA

08-21-2002 11:09:50




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 Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Richard, 08-21-2002 09:11:09  
Heck, a garden tractor can cost 6 or 7 thousand dollars today. I will continue to keep the old iron moving!



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G Taylor

08-21-2002 11:57:56




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 Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Tommy Boy in PA, 08-21-2002 11:09:50  
After a point it's cheaper to purchase new. The cost of lost production,labour(even your own time) and parts exceededs the cost of new.Plus depreciation can be claimed on new equipment.



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G-MAN

08-21-2002 13:16:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G Taylor, 08-21-2002 11:57:56  
Good point G. Most people don't say a word about paying four or five times as much for a new car as they did 25 years ago, but if they see a similar inflation rate in farm equipment, they hit the roof. It kind of goes along with the guys that drive brand new pickups to our dealership to buy parts for their old tractors and complain about the price of new parts and equipment. The bottom line is that even at the current price of farm equipment, dealers don't make much money in most cases and lose money in a lot of cases selling new iron. Most dealerships are supported by their parts and service departments, which make their money selling parts for and repairing that old iron. Go figure.

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Randy

08-21-2002 12:27:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in reply to G Taylor, 08-21-2002 11:57:56  
I would agree. I purchased a used running gear for $200 and after new tires, bearings, paint, etc. It looks like new but costs $900 not including labor. I purchased a new running gear the year before for $1,250 so next time I will buy new. The problem is that parts are way out of site. I purchased a few hood bolts yesterday from my IH dealer and the total was $40.



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