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OT

Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner

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ShepFL

01-24-2002 06:49:23




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I value y'alls opinion and seeking assitance yet again.

I am planning to build a home for my family - been out here for a few years now and wife is calling in her chips now that tractors have a new home.

Wrestling with how to cool the house. Approx. 2500 sq. ft. located in Sanderson (N. FL). Gets around ~100 in August with 99.5% humidity.

Originally was thinking of using standard A/C but THEN been told to use HEAT PUMP off of my ~2 acre fish pond. Supposed to be beneficial to me and my fish. I know NOTHING about Heat Pumps.

Looking for comments about efficiencies, pros and cons. I will continue to do additional research but also value your experiences.

As an aside heating plan is to use gas fireplace w/ blower and wood fireplace (concession to wife) in the family room.

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Bldr Update - (ShepFL looking for more comments PLS!)

01-24-2002 18:50:08




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THE PREVIOUS INFO. HOPEFULLY THIS WILL BE THE LAST FOR AWHILE!!

Spoke with builder tonite. He is not really crazy about water source heatpump for the following reasons:

1) Pond water temp may not be cool enough in summer for adequate cooling
2) As mentioned by Mike(WA) higher temp may result in fish kill, at minimum more electricity if considering well unit.
3) His HVAC sub is periodically temporarily unavailable for new construction as he is constantly switching water units out for air to air units. This detracts from his building schedule.

He has agreed to the following -
1) Ground units are an option but require more research by both of us.
2) His preference is 2 air to air TRANE units 14 SEER, possibly 16 if I really feel the NEED
3) Will make house air-tight thru and thru with "smoke" leak check. I also suggested extending chimney another 18" to get adequate draw for wife's 'atmosphere' fireplace due to air-tight house. Also asked that a damper be added - original spec was straight pipe.

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Yancey Justice

11-14-2006 11:26:26




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 Re: Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to Bldr Update - (ShepFL looking for more comments PLS!), 01-24-2002 18:50:08  
When your contractor said he's going to make the house air tight thru & thru, watch out - you need some natural ventilation to fight the build up of Carbon dioxide naturally expelled by people in the home. if you reduce the natural vetilation that happens via doors & windows (shouldn't be excessive, but shouldn't be air tight) then you will have to have an outdoor air source ducted to your air conditioner, and when the a/c kicks on, a controlled amount of outdoor air is brought in directly to the unit so that the air is conditioned before being dispersed through the home. On another note, my mother-in-law has a water source heat pump system via her well system for her 28-acre horse farm, and the temperature is always nice & she loves the low electric bill. However, she's located in the GA hills, not the lower land of FL, so that may make the difference.
-Mechanical EIT from Atlanta

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paul

01-24-2002 19:09:41




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 Re: Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to Bldr Update - (ShepFL looking for more comments PLS!), 01-24-2002 18:50:08  
Air conditioner & heat pump are really the same thing. Seems you are asking if air to air or air to water is more efficient. I suspect part of that depends on how deep the lake is, deeper is colder? Air to water is probably more efficient, but will cost more, give more trouble - so, which is better? If your builder is against it, might sway me against also - if he doesn't think it will work, sometimes things get done the way the builder is thinking - not working. Know what I mean?

As to the wood burner, on a super tight house you will need to supply air from the outside. No matter how tall the chimney is, the wood burner will only create a vaccumn and that's it. Need a pipe to the wood burner to bring in outside air.

But then, I live in southern Minnesota, where heating is a very important thing, and cooling is only for those who live in the little packed cubicles. So, my thoughts probably don't relate to Florida real well. :)

--->Paul

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ShepFL

01-24-2002 20:39:58




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to paul, 01-24-2002 19:09:41  
Thanks for the input Paul. I know about the draw needed for a fire but never thought about lack of internal air. Grew up in drafty homes in N. IDAHO.

The "atmosphereplace" as I will come to name this thing is a concession to the wife. As to a source for outside air, any suggestions - i.e. crack a window when she wants a fire? Perhaps a blower fan from outside??

I just noticed that the chimney was level with the roofline and concerned not enuff draw coupled with airtite house. Never thought about lack of internal air.

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Jhill

01-25-2002 05:28:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 20:39:58  
Shep
My fireplace has a door in the bottom that allows it to draw outside air for combustion. Works great.



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screaminhollow

01-25-2002 19:00:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to Jhill, 01-25-2002 05:28:46  
Two things, heat pumps need to work to hard in very high and very low temps. Not only is the ground water a better way to dissapate the extra heat, it generally stays well between the two temperature extremes allowing the air to water exchange to be even more efficient. The bottom of a pond is usually the best of the possible worlds. To raise the temp so high you kill fish, you must have a mighty small pond. Given the large gallon capacity of most small ponds, I'd be very surprised if the water temp goes up by more than three degrees. Many contractors don't want to be bothered with anything knew or out of the ordinary. (Five years ago I asked a builder about radiant heat in the floors and he came up with a dozen reasons why it is too inefficient. I've since read that these reasons were all BS.) It is too easy to do the usual and just plant a two ton unit in the bushes next to the house.)

Second, if the astmosphere place is on an exterior wall, a small pipe or tube (2 inch diameter) from the floor of the firebox to the outside shoiuld do it. Don't forget some kind of grill work to keep out the vermin. It is nice to have a valve or shutter to cut it off when the fireplace is not in use.

Your builder may be correct for your area, but I'd tactfully get a second opinion.

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ED

01-24-2002 18:16:58




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
BEEN DOING A/C WORK FOR A LONG TIME, IF YOU ARE IN A PART OF THE WORLD THAT GETS BELOW 32 DEGRESS DO NOT GO WITH IT. IT WORKS OFF HEAD PRESSURE AND IF YOU CAN NOT GET THAT UP IT WILL NOT WORK VERY WELL



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Robert in W. Mi.

01-24-2002 16:41:11




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
I see a lot of comments on heat pumps. My friend has been trying to get me to have one installed in my home. Because i have ponds that stay in the 40'sF all summer, it sounds pretty good, and i keep hearing how cheaply these things run. Here's my problem. My friend has owned his for more than 10 years, and it seems every year he has to get a tech. out to ajust something. It all so runs up his electric bill, as it has pumps ect.. His runs off his well water, so he's useing even more electricity, and shortening the life of his well pump. Humity can be a problem for several days each summer, and how does this heat pump lower the humity??? Useing a dehumidifer is another added cost! I see all this "added cost" to heat and cool his home, and when added to the cost he quotes for the year, i'm not sure it's worth it!! Well, it's something to thing about, Robert

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Jhill

01-25-2002 05:33:53




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 Re: Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to Robert in W. Mi., 01-24-2002 16:41:11  
Robert
My Water Furnace has never been touched in 10 yrs. Works perfect. I use well water because I don't have a pond. We have a bunch of these units here around me in the Thumb and everyone I know is happy with theirs. I have a 1450 sq ft log cabin with cathedral ceilings and $400 to heat and air condition / year. Water collects on the condenser of the furnace and runs into a pan and on the the drain. That is how a heat pump dehumidifies.

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raytasch

01-24-2002 15:38:47




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
Shep, I am in central FL. Believe me, go with the heat pump. ray



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john,PA

01-24-2002 14:07:29




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
I believe that I would check with local hvac contractors within 25 mile radius as to their experience with geothermal heat pumps. I think that you will find standard central a/c will be the norm with natural gas heat., if you have nat. gas locally.



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Mike (WA)

01-24-2002 14:03:00




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
I agree with the previous posts, that this will do a good job of cooling your house (and heating it in the winter)- but it will also cook the fish in the fishpond. The thing works by transferring the heat from the house to the fishpond. A fishpond in Florida in the summer probably doesn't need any additional heat transferred to it.



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John Mann

01-24-2002 13:27:17




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
I own a small heating cooling business in Ky. I agree with the water source heatpump. A way to consider this is by the S.E.E.R. , which is comparable to miles per gallon. Base models are 10 seer, a geathermal unit is as high as 21 seer. Yes it will cost more to install but you will really like the AC as you have a higher average daily temp. The water furnace brand is ok I personally sell the Command Air which is a division of the Trane Corp. Your pond is a very good source for the heat and cool disapation, as a rule I put in 180' of line per ton. Another consideration is you don't need a condenser setting outside. No noise on the patio etc. Be sure to have your hvac contractor to do a heat loss , gain for proper sizing. An air to air heatpump works well also I personally have this in my home. My heatpump is a 12 seer Figidaire , I wish I had spent a little more for the water source heatpump. Good Luck

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JHILL

01-24-2002 10:16:53




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
Shep
I have a Geothermal heat pump in my house in Michigan. I heat and air condition for $400/YEAR. Air conditioning is about $20.00 per month. Most efficient form of energy conversion available. Go
to Water Furnace.com for more info. I highly recommend it.



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BB

01-24-2002 10:06:48




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 Re: OT - Heat Pump vs. Air Conditioner in reply to ShepFL, 01-24-2002 06:49:23  
Don't know about a heat pump that uses water. Ours uses outside air. It looks exactly like an air conditioning unit. The only difference is that when put in the heating mode, it reverses the process and the coils inside become heating coils. Works well here (in N Texas) down to about 25 degrees outside. Below that the auxilliary electric heating coils are needed to assist the heat pump. Electric coils are not very economical but we don't have to use them very often. Our house is all electric and I would not go back to using gas. Overall, the unit is quite efficient. We do have a wood fireplace, but that is more for "atmosphere" than the actually heating effect. I do plan to put in a good efficient wood stove in our next house (5 yrs??).

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