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Ford f250 E40D reliablility??

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jdemaris

06-06-2007 18:37:15




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I asked a day or so ago about my 94 Ford F250 7.3 turbo-diesel with a trans problem. Well, I'm moving beyond that. I'm not a loyal or experienced Ford owner, thus the questions. I'm wondering about reliablity of the E40D automatic. I've had GMs most of my life and feel very secure with a TH400. Also feel somewhat ok with a Ford C6 since mine has never let me down. But, the E40D is new to me - and I'm a little disgusted. I bought the truck a few years back. It was previously used to pull a large gooseneck horse-trailer all over the country. At the time the trans. was supposedly rebuilt along with an aftermarket HD torque-converter. Last year, the trans sprung a major leak and got me stranded in Canada. I got an emergency rebuild there. Now, back in NY, and only 1600 miles later, the trans is acting up again. I cannot get any warranty - I'm in the wrong country. So, I brought it to a shop here. They say it needs a major teardown. So - I'm trying to find out what kind of reputation this things have. I do some towing now and then - sometimes an 8000 lb. trailer. Also travel with a slide-in truck-camper. I've done it for years with my other trucks - with 6.2s and TH400s, and my older Ford F250 with 6.9 and C6. Never had a problem with them. This truck has more power though and also the overdrive trans. Not sure what to do with this thing. Nice running truck with plenty of power. Rides nice, etc. But, I don't want to keep throwing money at this thing if this model trans isn't worth it. By the time I get done if I let this shop work on it, I could easily have close to $3000 in transmission work. And, they will only give a 6 month warranty since it's a tow-rig.

Anybody got anything good - or bad to say about it? I'm debating such things as selling the truck, or taking the plates of it and storing it 'till winter and tear it down myself, or maybe converting it to standard-shift - which will probably cost a fortune. I just don't have the time now to make it my own project, and I'd like to use it this summer.

If I was confident that this trans. could last a long time when fixed right - and used right - I'd be more inclined to spend some more money on it.

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Vern-MI

06-07-2007 04:18:45




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-06-2007 18:37:15  
Sounds like you have answered your own question. You would be more comfortable with a GMC or Chevy powertrain so stick with that.

I'm curious to know what happened to the E4OD in London when you had the major oil leak. Was it a cooler line or an oil seal or maybe the converter itself? Did the London shop rebuild the complete transmission. If they rebuilt the entire transmission did they do a good job or is that what you are fighting now? One poorly installed thrust washer can generate debris and cause a lot of problems a few thousand miles later.

A diesel engine has very high torsionals that must be absorbed by the transmission. When the transmission has a lockup converter there must be a damper similar to a manual clutch damper to absord those torsionals. The E4OD uses a long travel damper to do just that. When the turbine and damper rotate relative to the converter front cover under those high torsionals and a lugging condition the torsional damper travels some 45 degrees and the springs and balls in the damper generate wear particles. The turbine to front cover thrust washer is also under high stress at that condition. The converter ballons so much that the front cover pushes up against the crankshaft bolts and the impression of the bolts can be seen in the converter cover. Ford made several iterations of the front cover and thrust washer design before they got it right. The newer E4OD's were bullet proof. I think they have replaced that trans with a new 4R110 or 1100 Ft.Lb. transmission. For what it's worth.

My son has an 02' F250 that he pulls a twin axle construction trailer with. He beats the snot out of that one and it is the best transmission he has ever had but he has had it only about 140,000 miles so far. He is rough on trucks and his throttle has two positions, idle and full.

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jdemaris

06-07-2007 06:03:52




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to Vern-MI, 06-07-2007 04:18:45  
In regard to the breakdown in Canada - as I was going through the border crossing - into Canada - the border person mentioned to me that some sort of liquid was leaking from the truck. We had just turned the air-conditioner on and, like an idiot, I assumed the leak was just water from the AC. Found out pretty soon it was a trans-leak and it soon became a gusher. I stopped at a autoparts store and bought all the trans. fluid they had - around 20 gallons. We tried to make it through Canada back to the U.S. - but did not make it. Luckily, we found a small trans shop in London - "The Transmission Man." It was one of the hottest days of the summer, I had my wife, three year kid and a crippled dog. We got a hotel room - but no dog allowed. So, he had to stay with me at the trans. shop. They pulled it all apart and approached it as - replace anything necessary. They told me that most everything inside the trans looked like new, including an aftermarket HD torque-converter that someone previously installed. They said the leak was from a seal around the front pump (I think). They worked on it for over 10 hours - and got it going by early evening. Cost $1000 which seemed pretty reasaonble. I don't know exactly what was replaced. The bill just says "labor, pump, and other parts as necessary." Drove the truck home - and soon after took the plates off and stored it for the winter. It has less than 1500 miles on it since the work was done. I just put the truck back on the road for the summer. Drove it once, and that's when it started acting up. Keeps getting stuck in first gear. The place in London first said they'd cover it, but then quickly changed their story. The now say they only "patched it up" and it only had a three month warranty. So, now it's at a local trans shop here in NY. If it was winter, I'd tear it down myself, but I cannot now - I just don't have the time. They did some diagnostic and said it needs a complete tear-down. So, that's where I'm at. This trans shop tells me that the E40Ds are nowhere near as reliable as the older C6s, or GM TH400s - unless they are modified. I'm sitting here debating if I should throw more money at it now, or just take it off the road - and get antoher truck. Then, worry about it later and maybe sell it? It's a nice rust-free truck, ex-cab, 4WD, gooseneck hitch, excellent running engine, etc. Kind of a dog on fuel mileage though, and I'm tempted to get a Dodge-Cummins with a 5 speed manual. I've got a chance to buy one right now for $3500 with 4WD, ex-cab, and five speed trans - with 140K orig. miles. The guy says it will get 20 MPG empty on the highway - my Ford - when empty - gets 14.5 MPG at best. Seems to do the same though when loaded and worked. I put 520,000 miles on my former tow-vehicle - an 87 4WD 3/4 ton Suburban with a 6.2 diesel and TH400 trans. - and it was extremely reliable - although pretty slow when pulling loads. I had to rebuild the trans. once in that 520K miles - and never had the engine apart. My son now has it in Colorado and is still using it. So, I ask myself, how did I wind up with this Ford? Maybe it's not Ford's fault, we'll see.

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Vern-MI

06-07-2007 08:47:44




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-07-2007 06:03:52  
"They pulled it all apart and approached it as - replace anything necessary. They told me that most everything inside the trans looked like new, including an aftermarket HD torque-converter that someone previously installed."

From the way the transmission was working OK until the front seal went bad it sounds like you had a less that stellar transmission shop do the work of replacing the pump and oil seal. They undoubtedly caused the next failure that you are now experiencing. If it is failing within 1500 miles of leaving that shop it appears that they may have installed something incorrectly and it is now generating metal debris which is playing havoc with the shift scheduling. They probably made a small problem into a big one.

Since you have indicated that there are wear particles in the transmission pan that weren't there during the London teardown it looks like you have to find a good transmission shop with a known reputation for good work. The challenge now is to get all the debris out of the entire system including the cooler circuit for the new rebuild.

Those pesky thrust washers have a tendency to get out of position during component installation. They then wear off and cause metal debris which jams up everything.

The solenoid pack is succeptable to the very small ferrous particles which feel like talcum powder. They tend to get into the magnetic field of the solenoids and pack in behind the armatures of those valves.

By the way this transmission uses Mercon not Mercon V oil.

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jdemaris

06-07-2007 09:40:39




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to Vern-MI, 06-07-2007 08:47:44  
I didn't have many alternative choices at the time. When I stuck my wife and little kid at a Best Western hotel, I picked up the phone book and started calling transmission shops. Had my half-dead dog tied under a tree - but the hotel people said I couldn't leave him there, and also could not take him inside. It was one of the hottest days they'd had. Much hotter there than it gets here in NY (to my surprise). Most shops that I called were unwilling to look at my truck right away. They wanted me to schedule an appointment days later. I could not do that. I had animals back home that I couldn't leave much longer, i.e. I was not prepared to "vacation" in London, Ontario. I had already just spent two weeks in the Michigan UP and had to get back. So, when I called the shop in question - to their credit - they dropped all their scheduled work and fit me in. They spent - from 7 a.m. until 7. p.m. that evening to get me going. And, I tried to give them a $100 tip and they wouldn't accept it. From that perspective, they were really nice guys (two partners) and bent over backwards to help me out. For that reason, I'm kind of surprised at their attitude now. Your comments about a possible mistake creating new problems, yes - I suspect you're right. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to make a bid deal out of nothing - just trying to get some feedback on this trans. I have to admit, I grew up in a time when you were either a Ford fan, or a Chevy fan - in fact there were sometimes fist-fights over it (back in the good old days). I was a Chevy guy. Still am, however - for some strange reason - I've got several Ford Model As, one AA, one 1918 Model T, a 6610 tractor, a 85 F250 with a 6.9, and this 94 F250 with the 7.3 turbo. Maybe I'm sort of a "traitor" with tractors also. I grew up around Deere, worked for Deere dealers most of my life, yet - just about all my tractors are red (IH and Case). I only own two Deeres - but they are both yellow. Thanks for the input.

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Bob

06-07-2007 06:24:32




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-07-2007 06:03:52  
I don't think the E4OD tranny is as bad as you are thinking, certainly NOT bad for reasonable use.

The E4OD is essentially a C-6 with electonic controls and an overdrive added to the FRONT.

You'd be surprised how many C-6 internal parts fit the E4OD.

I don't trust a damn thing most tranny shops will tell you. They are in businees for ONE purpose, and that purpose will cost you $$$$. Was the oil burnt, or does it appear to have metallic parts in it?

Why didn't you "pull the codes" before turning it over to the shop? Unless the oil is "toasted" or full of metal, the problem well could simply be in the solenoid pack, or an electrical problem.

You posted "This trans shop tells me that the E40Ds are nowhere near as reliable as the older C6s, or GM TH400s."

That is INTERESTING... the GM 4L80E's are a pretty darn good tranny. A friend DID have some trouble with one, and took it to a tranny shop. It was a relatively simple fix, a snap ring that had come out of place in the OD clutch/planetary assembly. That is a known problem, which GM has remedied, and there is an update for the older units.

ANYHOW... the guy a the tranny shop was "dissing" the GM trannies, and said something like "we see 5 failed GM 4L80E trannies for every E4OD, and the E4OD is about the best tranny ever made".

So, it seems to me like some of the tranny guys will give you whatever "song and dance" fits the make you have and problem you are having, as if to justify the "wallet drain" you will soon be suffering.

I always thought you were a pretty smart guy until you admitted not investigating the leak, and now turning this truck over to the tranny guys without even "pulling the codes"!

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jdemaris

06-07-2007 07:41:05




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to Bob, 06-07-2007 06:24:32  
I think you are assuming things that are not true. My post was long enough and I tried to avoid making it any more verbose than necessary.

I did try to pull codes and there were no error messages. Perhaps if this was the OBII system there'd be more info.

I also pulled the pan and found a small amount of fine metal filings/dust. If this thing had a 100K miles on it, it would not concern me. But, with less than 2000 miles - I don't know if it's from recent damage, or residual from the last teardown.

In regard to me not looking at the leak right away - the reality is - I didn't want to stop and do that at the border. I was afraid - that if I stopped, got out and looked, and drew attention - some border cop would tell me to not drive - and then make me get it towed. If this was in New York, that would be expected. They'd send some sort of emergency-response oil-spill crew and maybe lock me up for destroying the planet. The truck has a slide-on camper and a lot of gear in it - so we had a lot of stuff we did not want to abandon. I did stop a mile down the road, get out and checked - and at point saw it was trans. fluid - coming from the front-inside of the trans - but the leak - at that point was not massive. That's when I found a store, bought some oil, and tried to get through Canada. Then, the leak got worse and worse. We found out pretty soon, that we'd have to stop. My first thought was to get rental truck, transfer my camper onto it, sell my truck, and drive home. We also considered getting it towed back the other way, to Michigan and dealing with it there. My in-laws live there. We tried to rent and found out we cannot rent a truck in Canada and drive to New York or Michigan. I called every major rental company, and none would let us cross the border. This was one of the hottest days of the year, my old dog was close to dropping dead from heat, my three-year old was crying, etc. etc. It was kind of a panic situation - especially since the motel would not let the dog inside. I even considered leaving the truck and buying another in Canada, but then found out that wouldn't work either.

You say I'm not being smart? What would you have done better?

In regard to believing, or not believing what people in shops tell me? I'm sure many are just plain liars and/or incompetents - but not all. I can often tell pretty quick when somebody is telling stories. Not much different in any other part of life. I simply don't know anything about what to expect from an E40D and didn't really want to get into a long research project. That's why I asked here. I'd like to hear from people that have actually owned and used them - like real trucks - rather then just hear what a trans-shop guy says - or what is written in some Internet forum (other than this one). My father-in-law has a Ford F150 - same year as mine and same trans and has never had any problems in 120K miles. But, his only has a 300 gas six-cylinder engine and he uses his truck like a car - never towed a thing and never hauled a heavy load. I suspect, from what I do know about the E40D, that it is not as strong as the older C6 because Ford has it programmed to shift soft like a car - via the computer and electronic controls. Soft shifts must cause heat and wear with a tow-rig. I've also been told - by my father-in-law - who is a retired Ford engineer -that Ford programmed the E40D to shift especially soft when attached to a diesel because of the torque. I also suspect - or hope - that it can be modified to be much stronger. And, back to my ostensive lack of intelligence. Well, maybe, and maybe not. I don't think so, but perhaps I'm too dumb to notice. I'm sure I could research this trans., and get info on all the alternative updates, and subsequently pull it down, take my time, and fix it myself. Maybe I will. But, I do not have the time presently, and I also don't want to have to re-engineer this thing if it just happens to be a trouble-prone trans. Again, that is why I asked.
Thanks to all that don't immediately assume I'm a moron.

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Bob

06-07-2007 07:51:27




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-07-2007 07:41:05  
We've all done DUMB things. I don't even care to THINK of some of mine! ($$$$)

However, I think you are making that tranny out to be MUCH worse than it REALLY is. (And, I'm a GM guy!)

Also, something went wrong when you "scanned" it.

If that tranny isn't shifting up for ANY reason, the 'puter's gonna know about it, and have something to say about it! I don't think it's possible to NOT have any codes, with the tranny stuck in "1".

A scanner will tell you which shift solenoids are "active", and there are pressure test ports to verify if each solenoid is "doing it's thing" or not, pointing to a stuck solenoid, or a bad seal/clutch pack.

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jdemaris

06-07-2007 10:00:40




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to Bob, 06-07-2007 07:51:27  
Well, I was sorting of thinking the same thing - but just as a guess without thorough knowledge.
If I were to proceed on my own, I'd buy manual an book of current updates. Whole set only costs around $25. It seemed - and still seems to me - that if an electrical solenoid did not do its job - it should be registered as an error, and if it DID do it's job, but the shift failed to occur - for whatever reason - it too should be recorded. But, I don't know how comprehensive the system is. I have seen many newer cars - 2000 and up - with other problems that do not register in the computer memory. I don't even know what a good E40D against a diesel is supposed to feel like - it's the first one I ever drove. I always thought it shifted way too soft between gears. After the Canadian guys worked on it, it still shifted soft. They told me it was, more-or-less, normal - but I ought to have a new FIPL switch at some point. They told me it would cost much less in the U.S. then it did in Canada - and it could wait. So, when I got home - I bought a new one and installed it onto the injection pump. It made no difference - but only cost $30.

I also must admit that I did not use my own scanner. My friend owns a nearby repair shop and has - what is supposed to be - some pretty good equipment. He is forced to have it by the good State of New York. That because now - the State mandates a search for error codes before issuing an annual inspection sticker (pre 1996s are exempt though).

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Bob

06-07-2007 10:16:54




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-07-2007 10:00:40  
Don't waste your money on the generic "$25.00" manuals, only expect them to be a "supplement" to the real thing.

I have those, and they're about WORTHLESS compared to the genuine Ford manual, a BIG loose-leaf binder. I got mine off of ebay. They come up there quite often.

The manual has a chart as to which solenoids are "commanded" by the 'puter for each gear. The scan tool will show you which solenoids are being "commanded" at any given time, and which "gear" that should give you.

I've "been there, done that", and it's kind of overwhelming at first, until you begin see the rhyme and reason of the solonoids interact to produce the various shifts.

The solenoids do NOT valve the shift oil directly. There is still a valve body, and shift valves. The solenoids valve a small amount of oil to operate the actual shift valves, basically electronic control of what the governor and vacuum modulator used to do.

That's why the solenoids can "stick" so easily... they're small and have tiny passages, 'cause they don't need to move much oil.

I really suspect one of the solenoids could be sticking, possibly from old metal debris, or as has been posted, if there's a thrust washer problem, causing ferrous material to be "shed" into the oil. The solenoids, being operated by a magnetic coil, attract any and all ferrous debris.

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farmboy steve

06-07-2007 02:51:24




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-06-2007 18:37:15  
find an IH school bus with the T-444 engine and ALLISON TRANSMISSION. swap the transmission and you will love it. GM has the right idea with the dura/max and allison. love mine for pulling backhoe and bobcat.



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davpal

06-06-2007 21:58:14




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-06-2007 18:37:15  
I agree totally that the new trannys just plain suck! People will defend their brand of vehicle like it is a person. I have said it a million times and will say it a million more that the electronics junk on these vehicles is doing more harm than anything else on them. I have five fords and the newest is a lincoln navigator and the quality is so bad it has almost become a unrelenting joke to me if it will make it to its destination anymore without something else going wrong with it or stranding me. Its too bad you cant take the E4OD to the junkyard and put a C-6 in it. I have an 88 F-350 and that has the ZF5speed in it and it is a piece of crap too. Don't put one of those in there. It is a rattley sounding horrible transmission. Ford took a wrong turn in designing vehicles and it is doubtful they will still be around to build more much longer. I know I would not take a new ford suv or pickup right now for free if Bob Barker gave it to me on the price is right. I don't have enough time in my life to keep it running. My car is a Lincoln Mark V111 that has been an air suspension nightmare. Just replaced all electronic suspension with struts and now I love the car. Much more reliable. Have raced mustangs for years and the C-4 trans in one has held up like a trooper. T-5 five speed in other one was cheap and I broke it but I upgraded it to all heavy gears and now it is a tough piece with no electronics to fail. I like stuff simple and strong and Ford doesn't offer that anymore. I am starting to like the sound of a volkeswagon diesel someday.

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pair-a-dice farm

06-06-2007 20:15:06




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-06-2007 18:37:15  
I've got 2 f150s with the E4OD. One has about 180000 on it and has never had a problem. The other has about 280000 on it and it was rebuilt at 240000. The original trans was pretty well trouble free until the torque converter went out and since it had so many miles on it I had it rebuilt. It just wasn't the same after the rebuild. It did not slip but the shifting was eratic. I don't tow much with this truck but I do consistantly haul 2-3000# loads. For pulling I will stick to my 85 6.9 diesel and 4 speed manual.

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dds-inc

06-06-2007 19:10:59




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-06-2007 18:37:15  
Well, they're reliable behind a 351 gasser. AND virtually no trailer towing. If you are planning on pulling a trailer most of the time and have a diesel, you can say goodbye to keeping up with the dodges and their 6 speed gearboxes and hello to transmission slippage after a while.

E40D's are known for shifting all the way down to first gear on a steep hill from 3rd gear, and not letting the engine lug up a hill. It's always 3,000 rpm's or 5,000 rpm's with that stupid tranny. The work van we have and pulling a trailer would be going along just fine in third gear on the highway and then it would just drop down to first and the engine would be running ridiculously fast.

Just imagine all this ridiculous shifting with a load- the little valves and all create a lot of heat, which melts them down, literally.

Automatics SUCK SUCK SUCK SUCK anywhere, anytime, anyhow.

And I DON'T care if people say to me *in mock voice* "well, automatic works really well, you should try it sometime" - I WILL NOT own an automatic.

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George S. in the real NY

06-06-2007 19:06:48




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 Re: Ford f250 E40D reliablility?? in reply to jdemaris, 06-06-2007 18:37:15  
I got a 94 F350 with that trans. I had to spend $1600 to have it redone, and I took it out and put it in. I've got other Fords with the C-6 and FMX and they just work and work. That E4od is not that great. Trans shop said yea, 150,000. miles is good for one of them. Oh, really now??? I do not like the electric/computer doing the shifting. That and the pain in the butt of having to push the OD button every time the engine starts to keep it out of OD, like for just running around town. I have used it a few times with trailer and tractor behind and not impressed. I'd like to find something else that would work that has throttle and road speed to control the shift. I have wondered if there is a 5 or 6 speed Allison that would work, like out of a garbage truck. The only draw back to the C-6 was it is only 3 speeds but they did the job, saw lots of them goin' 75 mph on the freeways out west. One of the common problems with the E4od is the solenoid shift module. If you have erratic up or down shifts that may be the whole trouble. It can be changed with the pan off, "rebuilt" units can be bought. I wanted to tear my old one apart but it went back as a core. Send me a note if you want with more ??? George S.

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