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Tractor Transporting Discussion Forum

DOT Brochures

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davediehl@hotmail.com

09-25-2007 19:00:29




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I have scanned a couple of the brochures that were provided to me during one of the classes I was in. These are the same ones that can be picked up at any Indiana State Police Post. Its 2 brochures total scanned front and back. Again, these are Indiana State items, but should explain what everyone has been inquiring about.

Link

Link

Link

http://www.geocities.com/angola_fire/dotd.jpg

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john_Bud

09-26-2007 13:40:16




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 09-25-2007 19:00:29  
Dave,

Thanks for posting the information. It seems your state is very similar to WI.
On exclusions and exemptions, in WI any vehicle pulling a horse trailer is exempt (up to 26,000#). Do you have that in IN?

Also, our FARM plate exemption is only for gross combined weight (actual, by MFG cert or registration) between 10,001 and 26,000#. Go over 26,000 and it again needs the USDOT#. It used to be 38,000 for heavy farm trucks.



General comment - The law states "for compensation" as one of the determining factors in telling if you are a commercial motor vehicle. It does not say "for profit". So, even if you restore tractors and sell them at a loss (IRS Hobby activity), you are still getting compensation. You are not a smart business man, but you are being compensated. Same story for fishing contests and horse riding competitions. I wonder if emotional compensation counts? Did you feel good about giving those 10,000 pounds of gifts to the orphans? Yes> You're a CMV!! Pay the fine!! third party image

Personally, I strongly disagree with that interpretation of "for compensation". But, alas, no body asked my opinion before the regulations were signed into law. If you don't like it, don't just sit on your duff! Write an incensed letter to every state elected official that represents you. But please, don't take it out on Dave or others in law enforcement posting here to help you. They didn't write the laws, but they do have to enforce them.

jb

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ScottyHOMEy

09-26-2007 18:14:36




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to john_Bud, 09-26-2007 13:40:16  
Sorry, John, and Dave, if it sounded like I'm down on the diesel bears. Not so. There are times I wish they could enforce rules on some of the rigs I see going down the road, that aren't in commerce. Like the 32' pusher with the twenty-year-old Cadillac Seville in tow, and not a sign of a wire for lights betwenn them, nor any kind of brake arrangement. And as the Mexican trucks work their way throughout the country, I can only hope their superiors can see that there are more valuable uses to be made of the time and efforts of the officers in the field.

I do object to the folks above Dave's head giving him orders that effectively make him a revenue agent as opposed to the law enforcement officer that he is and was trained to be. I used to drive regularly by the rest areas at the south end of 271 in Ohio, and it was not uncommon to see DOT cops pounding on the sides of sleepers at 5 or 6 in the morning to roust the drivers. One time that I stopped in there, I heard a pretty interesting exchange between the bear and the driver. The driver refused to participate in whatever it was the cop wanted. He argued that to do so would put him in violation -- he was only four hours into his required sleeper time, during which the regs say that he can have nothing to do with the operation of his truck. Not fueling, not waiting for a parking berth, not nuthin'. He even argued that he couldn't touch his log book, though he did give that up to show that he was on sleeper time. They were still goin' at it when I came out so I don't know how it turned out, but I thought his was an appropriate response. (A cop should be happy for the same reason a fireman is happy. If there's nothing to do it means tht there's nothing on fire, and every one is abiding by the law. Isn't tha what they're there to help with???) There's quite enough trucks on the road for those guys to deal with without rousting drivers. And, again, I don't expect the cop enjoyed it, but I don't doubt either that he had orders. What irks me that is that in no longer about safety -- it's all about revenue. Yes, they do get unsafe trucks off the road. But the largest part of their work has become writing tickets with exorbitant fines attached for minor infractions not related to safety.

To impound all vehicles without discretion on the basis of an obscure and questionable interpretation of regulation (not a law, a regulation) unrelated to safety is authority run amok. The history of DOT#s makes them obsolete. They are a leftover from the days when the ICC issued tariffs for the hauling of specific goods between specific points (to haul Oreos and pecaan sandys between the same two cities crequird two different tariffs if they were bakedby different companies). It's an archaic requirement still on the books, and rather that letting it die, there is a new interest in enforcing it solely for the revenue.

As to the question of compensation, IRS requires that any compensation be reported as income, and in the case I cited, the fellow who could no longer deduct expenses was also excused from reporting any compensation or income from his hobby.

To split the same hair that others do, a ten-dollar bill and a fifty are printed on the same paper. If I were hungry enough to east money, I'd gain no more nourishment from the fifty than from the twenty. But if I take them to the supermarket, I can convert either one of them from a mere token to facilitate commerce into something far more useful to me, being food that I can digest and that has a nutritive value far in excess of the very nice paper we use for currency. It is an act of commerce with compensation for me. The strictest reading would not allow me to take the dually to the Shop'n'Save without my name and a DOT# on the door. And we have an agent contributing on the board who would impound my vehicle under that argument.

Again, it ain't personal, but who's pushing a working guy to act like that, and why.

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Dick L

09-26-2007 10:43:38




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 Another Question Dave in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 09-25-2007 19:00:29  
I am in no way making any challenges of the law. This is the first chanch I have had to get answers that were more than rumors. I am glad you have come on the board to help us understand a very complex subject.

I am wondering about U-Haul trucks going from state to state with a GW tag over the 1001# without a CDL driver. If they do not need a CDL driver crossing state lines with a truck that you rent that is over the 1001 then what is the difference in one you own doing the same things??

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ScottyHOMEy

09-26-2007 09:19:02




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 09-25-2007 19:00:29  
There are quite a number of inconsistencies with all of this. As Dick L says, your typical long-cab long-bed dually with a Cummins in it has a gross weight rating on the order of 11,500#. Few officers would bother them unless there were some really obvious indication that they were using the truck in commerece.

But two examples down below, I'd have to question. It's okay to pull my horse around to trail rides. What I question is the assertion that if I sell the horse I need a DOT# to deliver it. By that argument, I'd need a DOT# to buy a horse and bring it home myself, too. Buying groceries or a vehicle is a commercial transaction. Extending the delivering the horse argument, I'd need a DOT# to pick up groceries for the mother-in-law when I go to town, or to deliver my dually to the dealer on a trade-in for a new truck. People buy and sell things all the time as part of daily life, so where is the line?

Now, whether it's my horse or my tractor I take to a show, some would argue that because I *might* win a $5 trophy or a $3 ribbon, that I'm engaging in commerce. I've sat through this argument over on a Dodge board. A fellow over there restored and showed tractors. He treated the restoration part as a business and claimed income and losses on his taxes. IRS got tired of it, especially since his losses consistently outweighed his income, and they issued him a letter declaring that his tractor operation was a hobby, and disallowing any future claims for losses. A DOT stop was querying him pretty hard, and he produced his IRS letter and ended the discussion.

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davediehl@hotmail.com

09-26-2007 17:40:53




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 09-26-2007 09:19:02  
I'm going to make this short and sweet as I am at work on the laptop as I type this.

As far as the horse hauling, there is a specific exemption in my state for horses traveling in horse trailers.

There is also an exemption for the occasional transportation of household goods. So your trip to the grocery is covered as long as you aren't buying a truckload for grandma. I don't see many truck/trailer combinations driving around Wal-Mart who unload a wheelchair.

As far as the bass tournaments, yes the DOT can enforce regulations. BUT, even IF you catch enough to be in the money, most leave the fish in the lake and do not transport them anywhere. So it could be a defense to be a non transport to any goods or services. There would be a few reasons that could eliminate that defense. But since we are on the subject of tractors and not fish, expect to pay to play.

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ScottyHOMEy

09-26-2007 19:52:43




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 09-26-2007 17:40:53  
And, by way of apology and to keep things clear, thit was another officer, not you, from another state that said transporting a sold horse would, if the weights were in his range, require aDOT#. I know I sound sore and I am, but it's not about you, it's about how on Gawd's earth could I hope to leave the state with my truck and a trailer and not get impounded or accumulate 5 grand worth of tickets along the way.

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ScottyHOMEy

09-26-2007 19:16:55




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 09-26-2007 17:40:53  
Dave, you just keep piquing my interest.

So I haul a bass boat to a tourney, put enough fish in the live well to win a cheap trophy and not enough money to buy fuel for the boat or the truck, turn the fish loose, and you'll write the ticket so I can go to court and hope the judge understands how out of line the citation is because I didn't bring the fish home. Ummmm . . . .huh???

Would not the same defense hold in the case of a tractor? Merely went to a show. Some folks appreciated the quality of my restoration and gave me a trophy, perhaps a small cash prize, neither of any greater value that those awarded to the fisherman.

I appreciate you're short on time for answers just now, but can you address the issue of delivering the truck for trade-in, as I can't imagine it would fall under the household goods exception that your state allows.

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Dick L

09-26-2007 07:16:03




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 09-25-2007 19:00:29  
I see the fire storm coming.
What you have posted along with others, and what I have found out here in Ohio, is that all the yuppies that bought thousands of four door dual wheeled trucks that never intended to use them for anything but a car are going to be real upset. They are going to have to not only get a US DOT number but have there name on the door when crossing the state line. The way I understand it now is that they also must have a fire extinguisher, safety triangles/flairs, and a medical card.

I see this is what is supposed to happen.

This could get real interesting.

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Doug in IL

09-26-2007 20:52:03




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to Dick L, 09-26-2007 07:16:03  
And right there is where the foolishness will end. Illinois had a semiannual pickup truck inspection law for many,many years. They don't now. What happened? Pickups, which were covered by the truck inspection law, became very popular as personal use vehicles by the late 1970's. Public outcry became very loud, and the pickup (1 ton and under) inspection went away. The legislators came under a lot of heat, and changed the law. We were also required to have our name and town printed on both doors, even on a 1/2 ton pickup. That went bye bye too!

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john_Bud

09-26-2007 20:58:10




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to Doug in IL, 09-26-2007 20:52:03  


Excellent point Doug! If you don't like the laws, change the politicians that put them on the books. Write to the congressmen/senators/govenor and give em and ear full. They get enough boots up the butt they will start to get a headache and maybe do something (besides toe tapping).



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Haywood

09-26-2007 11:33:20




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 Re: DOT Brochures in reply to Dick L, 09-26-2007 07:16:03  
I can too. I called the tractor dealer had worked for to the plate when I was asked to deliver tractors onece in a while with a L8000 @ 36,000. I was CDL Leagal but was at the time doing full time Mechanic repairs.

After I brushed up on my Fed and state regulations I realized I didn't want to drive truck for the company. I had a talk with the boss and told him that Driving a truck like this is a job in itself and I wasn't willing to become a truck driver in addition to being a mechanic. He went to under 26,000 on his trucks and hired 2 drivers and got in compliance.

It was a I opener for him and I.

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