Is Gas Welding Practical?

At this point, because I have electrical supply concerns related to arc welding(as per an earlier post) and because I figure I'll need a torch for cutting thicker stock anyhow, I am leaning toward a Smith cutting/welding torch package (BIG98-510, anyone have any experience?)

I have some experience welding with stick and MIG (several hours)but only about 1 hour welding with gas - on thin (1/16 inch) stock. I've been getting some feed back that gas welding for my application is not really practical. It seems like a lot of the folks here have had a lot experience welding with gas (as per the recent "1st Welder" thread by Nzer and other threads) so, I'm asking you all to put my mind at ease ...

I am I going to be able to do what I want to do with gas welding, or is it going to be too hard and slow so I should go right to the stick?

In the hands of a SKILLED welder, a torch will do amazing work. But until you get the skill and confidence that comes from practice, you'll not be comfortable, fast, or efficient with a process that takes so much concentration, good depth perception, and the use of both hands.

I have two suggestions for you, I bought a Hobart 140 AMP DC machine driven by a Honda that works terrific around the ranch here, it's not cheap but it has it's purpose ($1500). Nice little set up and is very portable. Also has a generator.

Next, check the internet for alternator welder conversions, they are very easy and can do up to 130-140 amps if you get the right alternator. You can mount it on your old farm truck or stick it on the tractor and it is available anywhere you can drive to.

My collection here is the Hobart 140 amp gas machine, a 350 amp Idealarc from the 70's, and a Hobart 175 mig. I Run the 350 amp machine on a 30 amp breaker and it does fine up to around 150 amps or so. It's wired for 50 amp service but all I had was a 30 amp breaker at the time so that is what I used. Now I have a 50 amp breaker, but haven't taken the time to stick it in there yet.

In "my" experience, 140 amps will weld almost anything out at the farm. I'm not a professional welder but I have built my own pens, chute, gates, and a few implements without a problem.

Good luck.

If you do not have the electrical supply required in your house for a 220 volt arc welder, consider getting a portable generator unit. I see used generator/welders in the local swap sheet on a regular basis. They will cost more than a 220v buzz box, but now you can weld anywhere.

I am not a weldor, I am just starting to play around and am in the same situation you are. For now, I am welding some projects together using 3 12 volt deep cycle batteries in series. You do not have much control, but I am learning to make welds and am creating a few useful implements for about a $120 investment. Once I outgrow this setup, I will purchase a generator/welder.

Douglas Stockman
Penfield, NY

Just a curious mind,
Bob

I wouldn't weld anything, personnaly, with a torch setup anymore. Way, way too much heat input, takes too long, weakens base material..... I don't care what any old timer tells you, or any other gas-welder for that matter, they swear by anything or process they were raised on, or have been doing it that way for so long that is the only process they know of. ((I try to avoid these types of arguments with my grandpa...)) With the technology out there now, you shouldn't be welding with a torch set up at all, no matter what the reason is. Brazing and cutting is all that I use my torch outfit for.

Branden

Hi Branden, Your post contains several mistakes and this "old timer" is here to set you straight.

Branden: "Way, way too much heat input"
You need to return to welding therory 101 and read some more on heat fusion. "Any" welding process takes the same amount of BTU's for complete metal fusion to occur.

Branden: "weakens base material"
You need to quote the book you read this statement out of as there's no basis of fact on this statement but the exact opposite is true.

Branden: "takes too long". Well now, lets do a 1" certified plate test With me using oxy/act and you can pick your manual arc welding method and we'll coin toss for 2F, 3F, 4F, 5G or 6G and will be based on time and a bend test to AWS spec's. You notice I didn't say 1F as I didn't want to take advantage of you.
Since I'm retired and do a fare amount of travling I'll stop by your area and we'll go to a local VO-tech school for the testing. Gees we could make it interesting and say maybe looser buys dinner and lets say will dinner will be, you guessed it, T-Bone's.

Branden: "they swear by anything or process they were raised on"
Now thats the first correct statement you made. I guess to be fare before you accept my T-Bone dinner(I like mine rare) challange, I started off gas welding then took 35 weld certification tests in SMAW, GTAW, GMAW and SAW and failed 1/3 of one 3/8" plate test of the 35 tests, then went on to be a AWS CWI(Certified Weld Inspector) and then a Refrigeration Engineer.
"I believe the ball is in your park"

Hi Mike,

Mike: "To weld 1/4 stock with gas will take a long time and will exceed the draw rate on all but the largest bottles!"

T_Bone: To gas weld any thickness of plate/pipe will not exceed the draw rate of any size acetylene cylinder. A Victor Model 100 torch is rated to cut 3" plate and unlimited thickness for gas welding. The Victor 100 is the smallest torch Victor makes.

Mike I'll make the same challange to you as I made to Branden as far as time it takes to gas weld.

T_Bone

If you want to make implements and such you'll need to arc weld.

But you'll need a torch to cut with anyway.

-- bb

I own two Smith Torches, and they by far are the best out there, mine have lifetime warranties and are very light and easy to hold and use. I have used Victor brand torches and they seem heavy and cumbersome when compared to Smith!!!

The biggest first mistake most gas welders make is buying too large of a torch for general cutting and welding. It's very hard to control the weld puddle with a big stump for a torch. There's nothing better than a Victor 100 mixing chamber as it's just the correct size for 99.9% of all gas welding and cutting.

The next mistake is buying to large of oxy/act hose. You need light flexable hose as to not restrick the torch movement. Look at a Tig welding torch, small light weight, light hose, light welding lead all for best control and the same applies to gas welding. 3/16" max for hose size!

Although Smith now makes a quality product it wasn't always that way. I just like the best, Victor 100.

Gas welding is a slightly slower method of welding over arc welding but there again your not a production shop so who cares if it takes 2 minutes for a weld or 3 mintues.

The first welding machine for any welder should always be a oxy/act torch.

I have written past articles on the lost art of gas welding posted on this website that would be a good review. Do a search to read them.

T_Bone

You and the others of your old ilk have convinced me to try my hand at gas welding - and I'm going for a smaller torch too. Going out and buying a engine driven arc welder and plasma cutter, as suggested by a number of folks, would be great, and my wallet might even handle it, but my marriage might not!

I have another question though regarding size of cylinders. When I took my welding class at a local Voc school the torches were hooked up to a bank of several tanks, and the instructor noted that you use different setting on the torch for this set up vs single oxy/ace set up. I have also read that, as a rule of thumb, you are only going to get a max flow rate of 1/7 the volume of the tank per hour.

Aside from how often they need to be filled, are there other advantages to larger cylinders. Would the extra $150 for the "large" vs "medium" sized tanks (to buy) be worthwhile?

Thanks for your help. Are you the same T Bone that posts on the freeautoadvise Powerstroke site?

Congrats Tim as you have just learned a great leason, live with-in your means...foolded you huh? LOL Franz done give away my secerts :)

Now that your wanting to learn, I'll Tell you anything I know to steer you in the correct direction.

When I made the statement it doesn't matter what cylinder you have , as you'll never be close to over drawing any acetylene cylinder. Why?
Too many welders think that you need to turn up the pressure to achieve a god like weld. ha ha it was a mistake...good I ment..I'm in a very good mood today so bear with me...
The opposite is true. For my example with Branden on a 1" plate test, I would use 5psi of acetylene and 20psi oxygen with a #3 tip, just so I could have the speed to whoop him as normally I would use a #0 or a #00 tip but notice I didn't say anything about upping the gas pressure on act or oxy as it's not needed. Why? I use two gas pressure settings for all my cutting and welding needs:
There's three gas valves located on the torch, two on the mixing chamber (the part of the torch closest to the gas supply hoses) one oxygen valve and one acetylene valve and there used for controlling preheat. The third valve is on a cutting chamber is up forward of the other two valves is for setting th oxygen mix of the preheat flame. If you had a welding/brazing tip on the torch, just the two valves on the mixing chamber would be used and if the cutting head is attached then the oxygen valve on the mixing chamber is set too wide open and the oxygen is controlled by the most forward oxygen valve and sets the preheat for cutting.

CUTTING:
1) I use a #3 cutting tip with pressure set at Oxygen 40psi and 7psi acetylene. Don't matter if I'm cutting 24ga or 1" plate I use the same tip and pressure settings. How about them dingle berries on the back side of the cut? I don't have any when I'm done if I done my homework!!! Why? Damn given-up more trade secerets but hey I have nothing better to do. I told you thats I was in a good mood :)
What causes the dingle berries? A very CLEAN center hole in the cutting tip along with the correct speed controls the dingle berries! PERiOD!!! Reread this as thats the seceret to cutting very well without slag on the back side!
On a cutting tip you have two types of mixed gas discharge holes. The outside gas holes are for base metal preheat and a center blow hole for discharging the base metal you just preheated.

So with that I've have just explained how clean is clean for the center blow hole? Glad you asked!
After cleaning the center tip hole, fire the torch up with a little act/oxy mix. I hate those black carbon fluffies that fly around when you have too much acetylene. :) Set the acetylene too keep the flame, without oxygen, in touch with the cutting head tip. If there is a air gap between base of the acetylene flame and the tip, then you have too much acetylene. The next step id too set the oxygen.
Oxygen is set by turning the green knob on the mixing chamber: LMAO
Oxygen mix is correct when then the heating flame is just cone shaped with a "rounded cone" top to the flame tip. Reread this as it's important. A sharp point cone is too much oxygen added and is called an oxidizing flame! Anotherwords too much oxygen. An that you don't want!
Now that you have the preheat set correct it's time to set the cutting flame, the center hole gas mix. The forward gas valve controls oxygen on the cutting head.

Next depress the cutting lever. Thats is what blows the preheated metal away and cuts the metal. This "center" flame cone should have very clean lines on the cone edge extending out to the end of the flame cone. If the edges of the cone are ragged looking or the center cone is very short, then the tip center hole needs cleaned once again, thus reapeating the test for a clean center flame hole. It may take you several trys of cleaning the center tip hole to get the flame cone correct but that is the first seceret to burning a slag free basemetal underside.

2) The second influnance on cutting a slag free cut, is the cutting speed that the torch is moved forward for a given amount of base metal preheat BTU. Although this travel speed is important, it's much more important to pay attention to the cleanness of the center blow hole when free hand cutting. Automated Machine travel cutting will tolorate a more dirty cutting hole than hand cutting.

GAS WELDING:
1) I use 20psi Oxygen and 7 psi Acetylene. Pressures are set with torch valves OFF! Same with cutting pressures. The only reason I drop the oxygen pressure while brazing/welding is to keep from blowing my flame mix out if I bump the oxygen control valve. The same procedures are used for setting the welding flame as setting the preheat cutting flame. Pay close attention to the cone. A nice rounded cone flame tip is what your wanting.

Notice that I never raised my acetylene pressure for either cutting or welding thus it never over draws the acetylene cylinder size. I also use these pressure settings for the acetylene "B" tanks and never over draw them.

I buy the largest cylinder size for cost efficetiveness and so I don't have run and get them filled all the time. Thats the only reason tho. Get what ever size you feel you can handle weight wise as they do get heavy to lift if you don't know how to lift them.

I'm sure I have forgot something so e-mail me if you like as I don't post my e-mail addy for spam concerns.

[email protected]

T_Bone

I've got a 30-year-old Victor torch, and it's outstanding. Once you learn how to control a torch to weld, braze, etc., it DOES make all other types of welding easier to perform and understand.

As I've told lots of 8th graders at school, "Welding's a little like playing a guitar. Anyone can do it, but only a few learn to do it extremely well!"

Thanks for teaching kids to weld!! It could be very important to them some day even if they are like me and never tell you.

HM

I resymeble that "old geezer" remark. LMAO I was reading to the wife what Branden said on "old timers" and that was her remark "tell him that your an old geezer" LOL It must me my day :)

Yep hard to beat that Victor 100. I got mine from my Dad 25yrs ago and he had it for a long time so I really don't know how old it is.

Over the years Miller has made some really great machines. There wire machines are the best. I've only used two that would beat there arc welders and thats a Lincoln pipeliner and a Linde. That Lincoln Pipeliner has the most stable arc's that I've ever used and is really a great Tig machine.

Ahh The good times :)

T_Bone

Theres a brand name I haven't heard in awhile, Purox. I think I was given a set of gauges years back that went with that torch. Takes two hands just to hold the nipple to the bottle to mount the damn things. LOL

You brought back some memories on the hitch. When I was just a pup, I had the strut, Certified in SMAW, GTAW and GMAW at age 18 so off too brag a bit with the big boys. Were putting angle iron flanges on high pressure duct work and the foreman came over with a single jack and gave the angle joint I just had welded a little thump and the damn angle iron fell to the floor. LMAO

Talk about a ego buster!!!

T_Bone

I think the most valuable lesson I have learned many years ago is to be sure and listen to the "old timers" and really listen because you're going to learn something, most of which is not going to show up in some video cassette or text book either.

I'll be the first to admit that I'll grab for the GMAW or SMAW for most things but there are still those jobs where the GTAW is best pushed aside in favor of the flame. I don't do much flame work anymore but it's there when I need it. Got an old Victor set as well, dad gave it to me way back when and I still use it. I've taken favor to LP for all my cutting work so the acet does not get used except for welding.

Like many of you, I also learned gas welding first which does teach you a lot about making a good joint and getting fusion between filler and base metals. I gas welded everything for years before moving on to SMAW with a Lincoln 225 buzz box.

Now, most of my work is done with the Big Blue machines and wire feeders but the old tried and tested methods still have thier place. Speed is one thing but it does no good to make a fast weld if it does not hold. "Re-work" is something I don't want to hear because that's when the money is coming from my pocket.

OK, I'll confess a little too. I got me one of those little 120 volt wire welders too. 90 bucks from Harbor Freight but is light and small enough to carry around easily. It has it's purpose and fills it quite well. Many times I am called in to build a machine guard or fit-up a modular appliance. Doing the light guage fabrication and tack welds on the big stuff, without having to drag around hundreds of feet of 2/0 leads or a 1000 pound machine is great. Being able to plug into any 120v outlet is about the handiest thing you can have when working in a plant. Beats the heck out of dragging leads from the parking lot or having to live tap into 480 three phase which tends to upset the sparkies who get the willies when they see the welder poking around in their electrical panels.

As for the weekend warriors with the buzz boxes, do yourself a favor and get some "6013LV" (LV stands for Low Voltage) rods. Particular brand I have is Alloy Rods. I don't mess with the buzz boxes much either but got a free sample of these at a show a few years back. Was at dad's the one day and he needed some welds done on 1/4" angle. Pulled those LV's off the shelf and gave 'em a run on the old AC lincoln. 1/8" 6013LV set machine at 115 or 120 amps and run 'em like you would a 7018 on a good DC machine, keep a real tight arc. You'll see the difference immediately when the slag falls off on it's own and the bead is as pretty as all get out.

Mark Kw

Yep I do the same but I still like to gas weld every now again. As for the weekend warriors I also am guilty as I still have my 50yr old Lincoln buzzer. It just welds to good and shoot I don't burn probablly 10lbs of rod a year anymore. This year will be different as I'm setting up my new truck but most of it will be Tig on a 120gal fuel tank and 120gal SS fresh water running boards tanks. Going to use my Lincoln SP100 wire feeder for my Tig machine.

I went to work installing commerical SS kitchens one time and they handed me a Century DC 115v machine about 16" long and 6"x8" for field work. I kinda laughed at them but had to eat my words as that was one great little Tig machine. Very light weight and had a very stable arc. If Century had put decent amperage controls on the front pannel I bet they would of sold a bunch of them.

T_Bone

I recall from the old engine drive and motor-generator machines where you set the course current adjustment to a higher setting and kept the fine current adjustment to a low setting to get deep penetration with a "digging" arc, likewise set the course current adjustment to a lower range and cranked up the fine current knob to near max for a smooth arc. Inverter machines are nothing of this sort at all. You get the best of both worlds by having great pentration while still keeping a super smooth arc.

I was even more impressed with this little inverter machine when I did some scratch start tig on stainless with it. Got a little spoiled with the HF start and foot control but could not complain one bit about how well the tig runs on the inverter. I got to love this machine so much, I could not help but get a bigger one, the Miller Phoenix 456. Great machine but I ran into some trouble powering it with a genset at 230v 3phase, arc became unstable and duty cycle was limited at the lower voltage operation. Whole reason behind this was being able to have the portable operation out in the mines and quarries or along the road while being able to plug the service truck into shore power when available. Since I am limited to 240v 3ph at the shop, I decided to scrap this idea in favor of the XMT-304. Smaller machine but plenty big enough for what I need. This one will operate on 240v 1ph or 240/480 3ph without requiring any wiring changes inside the machine, plus the inverter is designed to compensate better for the slight variations in input power associated with genset operation.

I'm still driving the Trailblazer in the big service truck and the Bobcat in the small truck. As you can figure by now, I'm stuck on my "blue" machines. I've been using nothing but Miller since 1991. In addition to the above two, the Econotig, Millermatic 300, Dimension 452, 32 & 64 series feeders plus the 30A spool gun. Nothing wrong with the Dimension but I decided to replace it in favor of the XMT-304 not only because the XMT is an inverter but mostly because of the lower input amperage draw. The added plus is the 350 pounds less weight and better arc and no wiring changes to correspond with different input powers.

I bring this up because I took note to you bragging a bit on Lincoln machines. In all fairness, my first engine drive was a SAE-300 with a Herculese 6 cylinder enigne. Needing a smaller more portable machine, one that weighed less than my pick-up anyway, I picked up an old DC 225 powered with the Onan twin 16hp. Ran this one for two years doing part time work until it blew a gasket and siezed before I could get it shut down. I was on a job an needed a machine right then and there, went to the local welding shop and there sat the Trailblazer ready to go, and, it did, right into my truck and off to the job site. Took a while to get used to the difference in arc between the lincoln and miller but I am glad I got the Miller. Last year was the first I ran a lincoln since that day I turned blue. I got called to a job right after ripping down the bobcat for its yearly complete service. The job was in a place where I could not get the big truck into but the guy said I could use his brand new ranger 8 that was there. He bought the machine mostly to use as a genset because he does not weld much of anything. I got there to find the machine all shiny and new with less than one hour on the meter. I used it, got the job done, but did not like it at all. The arc was sluggish and lacked stability. 1/8" 7018 vertical up's were nearly impossible to do with this machine. The arc was nowhere near the snappy hard driving Miller arc. A short time later, I was called in on a pipe job by another welding shop I work with from time to time. His pipe guy was hurt in a car wreck and he needed a job finished pronto. He had the Lincoln engine drive pipe machine (don't recall what lincoln calls theirs) at the site. I had to make about 30 joints on 8" sch80 pipe and fittings. I got into the first joint with 1/8" 6010 and played with the machine for about an hour before giving up. This one was much the same as the ranger 8 in that the arc lacked stability and seemed to just lay around instead of driving into the base metal. I finally fired up the bobact and finished the job without a glitch.

I also had a bad experience with an Ideal Arc 480v multi-process machine at one of the coal plants. The guy was trying to be nice and bought this machine to leave in the plant for me to use. I hooked the first one up and it would not even run a 6011. The ouput amperage wandered up and down so much that you could not even maintain an arc for more than a few seconds. Thinking it was just a bad machine, I returned it to the dealer, got another new one and had the same exact problem. This one was also returned and yet another new one ordered. A week later, the dealer delivered the new machine and stayed for the hook-up and test run. This one was better but after running 5 or 6 rods back to back, it too got the wild amperage swings and uncontrollable arc. I'll say this much, the dealer tried to make things right and called the factory right from the plant office to find out what was wrong. A few minutes later he hung up the phone and said "I can't believe what they just told me. If they don't like, they don't have to use it." He did his best to try and make us happy but ended up giving us a full refund and taking the losses on shipping and his time. After that, I made a deal with the owner of the plant and my old Dimension is there now, which BTW, I will be using tomorrow. After these bad experiences with lincoln, I could not bring myself to compliment thier newer products in any way. I still fire the old SAE-300 from time to time when doing heavy carbon arc work but that's it. I can't complain one bit about this machine since it is still a great machine. It's big and sucks a lots of gasoline down but works fine. The new ones, I think, nuff said for my view of them.

Although Lincoln has built some good machines the only one I ever used that was the best portable was the Lincoln Pipeliner as the arc stability is fantastic and I've never used another portable that was any better.
Miller answered Lincoln with the Miller Big Blue a portable and it was a good machine but the Pipeliner had a more stable arc. None of the smaller older(10yrs ago and older) portable machines could hold a candle to either the Pipeliner or the Big Blue. Don't get me wrong as other Lincoln & Miller portables were good machines but just not the best in arc stability. Hobart's portable answer to Lincoln and Miller was a complete flop just like all there machines have been.

Now as far as wire machines go, Miller is tops as I never found anything better. Lincoln tried to catch up but failed. The only wire machine that could hold a candle to Miller was the Linde but over the years I've only used two Linde machines as there cost was twice of any of Miller's so Linde shot themselfs in the foot. Linde also had another draw back and that was any type of in-plant movement was not possible as they weighed a ton that even a good pallet jack had problems moving.

Indoor arc machines again I liked the Miller with Linde and P&H only being able to top the Miller but both the Linde and P&H were a "use in-place" machine as both were extreamly heavy. I believe where Linde and P&H made a name for themselfs was in automatic welding and when they were no longer suitable for automatic arc stablility then they'd get handed down to us manual guys. I know that was the way it was at Coors when I worked in there tank shop where we used them for SAW(Submurged Arc Welding).

The only machines that I would refuse to use was the Hobart as it was just a waste of time. I would spend more time repairing them than welding and then the arc stability was so bad.

I have not had chance to use any of the new machines of the past 10yrs or so thats why I don't answer "what machine type to buy posts".

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, Miller Lincoln was both having a problems keeping in the "black" and cut there quality down alot mostly changing to a aluminum tranformer winding that caused wild arc stability problems. I really don't know what either are using for transformers today.

T_Bone

One Lincoln I wouldn�t rule out is the LN-25 suitcase welder, I think that it would make a good/great companion for running wire with the XMT-304 or about any other CV power source, including engine driven. We used these and the older Airco�s in the shipyards. The portability and distance they can be run from their power source is amazing.