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Radiant In-Floor Heat

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Crank

01-18-2002 19:15:35




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When I had the floor poured for my 30-48 foot shop I placed 2 - 500 foot loops of 1/2" pex pipe in the floor to install radiant heat. My plan is to hook this to a 40 Gallon Propane Gas water heater (with a side hot water outlet) and circulate the water with a 12-volt 5 GPM pump. I am going to run a closed system, that is once I fill the system with water the fill valve is closed. I will put a small expansion tank between the water heater and the pump. I also plan on an air release valve on the cold return line right above the water heater. I know the water heater has a thermostat on it. I plan on setting this at 80 degrees. I want to use a 24 volt furnace thermostat wired between a 12 volt transformer and the pump. This thermostat will be set at 55-60 degrees. Now comes my question, and keep in mind that I'm not a rocket scientist. If I have to pay 90 cents a gallon for propane, how much will it cost to operate the water heater if it ran continously? What I'm trying to do is figure out worst case scenario. Its been cold here in Minnesota for awhile now, I know it will take a few days to get the slab up to 60 degrees. Anyone else tried this system? See any problems in my setup? Thanks for any help.

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dave#1

01-22-2002 04:43:36




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
I also have a heated concrete floor in my 30x50 barn, I have 3- 300' loops, one pump with valves that I can turn to turn on/off any of my 3 zones. I also use a propane heater(I did anyway), I had to give up on it after the first year because of the high cost. I just finished building a inside wood boiler that goes in line with the stove pipe of my wood stove, so far so good, I hope to post some pics in the near future.

ps oh ya, I did'nt use the foam board under my concrete and now feel that was a big,big mistake !

later,dave

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One more thing.......dave#1

01-22-2002 04:46:22




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 Re: Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to dave#1, 01-22-2002 04:43:36  
My system is not pressureized (sp) and I use automotive antifreeze.

later,me



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bill b va

01-20-2002 10:26:03




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  

where are you going to get this $.90 per gal propane ? seems the last time looked at my bill it was about twice that .also propane has much less btu's per gal. than fuel oil



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Crank

01-21-2002 15:58:44




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 Re: Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to bill b va , 01-20-2002 10:26:03  
Bill,
I contracted this year for 89.9 cents a gallon. Last winter I contracted for 81.9 cents a gallon. I can't remember what I had to pay for summer fill, but it was less.



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Johnbob

01-20-2002 06:40:56




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
I put this type of heat in my shop.It is 38-44.
I used 2 in.foam under floor and around footer.
You need one foot of pipe per sq.of floor.I use 30 gallon electric water heater to heat mine.It is rewired so both elements will at come on at same time.You never go over 300 feet per pipe run.I have 5-300 ft.runs in mine.I used 1/2 in pex pipe. A 50 gallon gas water heater will work fine. You can get all the parts and how to install it from a place in Minnesota called Aqua-Therm 1-800-325-2760 I'm not connected to this company.

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john rennie

01-19-2002 17:44:08




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
We have used a system like that for over 25 years,32x50 shop with 1200 feet of 1 inch poly pipe in one coil.We use a 40 gal natural gas heater with just the control on the heater.turn it up a bit for a cold spell,down for a warm one.We use a similar system to heat our kitchen and entry .We live in Alberta so it can get cold. works for us



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john rennie

01-19-2002 17:44:02




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
We have used a system like that for over 25 years,32x50 shop with 1200 feet of 1 inch poly pipe in one coil.We use a 40 gal natural gas heater with just the control on the heater.turn it up a bit for a cold spell,down for a warm one.We use a similar system to heat our kitchen and entry .We live in Alberta so it can get cold. works for us



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Pawnee

01-19-2002 09:25:47




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Call Delaney Impl. Co in Burdett Ks. Phone 620-525-6221. Ask for Mutt they built a new shop for their business and put hot water heat in the floor and it work great



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Keith

01-19-2002 09:06:53




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Crank, Hate to be the one to burst your bubble but two 500' runs is not enough to warm your slab. At your intended run temperature of 80 degrees and the minimal amount of tubing buried in your slab I would doubt you could develop more than about 17 btu's per square foot, perhaps even less. Given the sq footage of your shop and the available tubing, you only have about 25,000 btu of potential output. Increasing the water temperature will increase the btu output. Your other problem is the pressure drop caused by the 500' foot length runs. My guess without doing the math is you should have about 2400' of pex in total, making your maximum run lengths no more than 300'.
Get a hold of a design book and good luck!

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Heres the Links

01-19-2002 08:05:31




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Sorry I can't get them to work any other way.

Link

http://www.jlconline.com/jlc/archive/energy/water_heater_heat/index.html



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Crank

01-19-2002 08:00:08




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Thanks for all the replies. My shop has 2"X4"X10' sidewalls. There is a vapor barrier and 2" of ridged insulation under the 5" slab. I will be installing 2" of ridged insulation around the perimeter of the slab and up unto the course of block that the sidewalls sit on. I have R-11 in the sidewalls and R-19 in the ceiling. All interior walls are covered with 1/2" sheetrock with a vapor barrier underneath. My overhead doors are commercial grade insulated doors. There are only 3 small (24"X36") windows in the shop. Two ceiling fans will be installed to push the heat to the floor. The contractor who poured my slab said that he know guys in the area that have used the system I have planned and it would cost about $50 a month to keep it at 60 degrees. This seemed to low to me. Today it is about 10 degrees here. If I turn on my 100,000 BTU forced air heater I can work without a coat on in about 15 minutes. I have to turn the heater off after 25 minutes. Then I light my Kerosun which keeps it comfortable. In the future I plan on blowing more insulation into the ceiling. If anyone is interested I've added a link that I used for some of my planning. Bill, why do I need a relay for the pump? Can't I run a 12 volt pump off of a 24 volt thermostat?

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Bill

01-19-2002 13:11:00




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 Re: Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-19-2002 08:00:08  
The reason that I suggested that you use a relay is that the 24 volt thermostat is not designed to take the high current draw that is required to run the pump, unless it is rated for the pump. It may burn out the heat anticipator, the contact points or if you have a mercury thermostat, the mercury itself. The coil of the relay requires very little current draw, in relation to the pump. You could use a 120 volt thermostat, the kind used for electric heat. Just more expensive then the 24 volt.

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MarkB

01-19-2002 06:59:42




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
I strongly suggest that you bring in someone knowledgeable in hydronic heating systems to help you design the system. You're trying to cut corners by substituting parts, but the extra investment in installing a properly designed system is going to be worth it in the long run. A hot water heater isn't going to be a good substitute for a boiler. Water heaters have fairly low BTU outputs. A boiler will put out about 200,000 Btu/Hr vs. about 40,000 Btu/hr for a water heater.

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Chuck

01-19-2002 05:12:41




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Somewhere on the water heater is a plate giving the hourly burn information. Use that to determine how many gallons or cubic feet an hour it burns. Then multiply that by your cost per gallon.
Thanks for the layout. I had been thinking about doing that and you gave me some info that I needed.
Good luck!



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Mike

01-19-2002 05:03:22




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Others have answered below on how weell this setup will heat your slab. I will answer your operating cost question. If the water heater runs continuously use the below formula to calculate your cost. You will need to fid out the amount of BTU's/ hr the water heater is rated for. This should be listed on the water heater somewhere. Take that number in plug in the below formula.

Mike

$ per day= ??? BTU/hr heater uses x 24 hours/day x $0.90 $/Gal of propane / 82,000 BTU/GAl of propane


Example Calc:

for a 40,000 BTU/ hr water heater

$= 40,000 X 24 x $0.90 / 82,000 = $10.53 day

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Bill

01-19-2002 05:00:39




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
A gallon of propane produces 91,547 BTU's of heat. The burner of the gas water heater is commonly 37,000 BTU per hour. If it ran constantly a gallon of propane would 2.47 hours or divide 2.47 into the price of propane per gallon. If you use the 24 volt thermostat you would have to install a relay to operate the pump. The thermostat will not withstand the high current that the pump will use. A closed system can be dangerous if your water leaks out, there should be saftey device to turn off the burner. Hot water heating systems always have pressure to feed them in case of leakage in the system. This is done with a reglulator set at 12 psi. Use a 30 psi relief valve.

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Douglas Stockman

01-19-2002 03:03:07




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
Greetings:

Calculating how much it will cost to heat is not as easy as you think. One item you did not address was how well insulated your space is. Not only the walls and ceiling insulation count, but also the insulation below and around the slab. If you did not insulate the slab, much of your heat may go into the ground. If there is limited insulation in your building any heat that goes into the slab may be quickly lost through the shell.

Our 2,100 sq ft house has radiant floor heat which is powered by a 95,000 BTU instant on heater. Our main floor is actually composed of 8 inches of SpanCrete with 1.5 inches of gypcrete on top of the SpanCrete. The tubing is in the GypCrete. Just to get the floor to budge the temperature in the room from say 65 to 67 takes a good 2-3 hrs of constant running. Of course the room then stays warm for many hours. Our house is also superinsulated. The walls are R-40 and the ceilings are R-50. It is also so tight we need a heat recovery unit. With that all said, over half of our heat comes from our wood stove and the passive solar design of our house. Last month was pretty warm for the Rochester, NY area. We used about 85 therms of natural gas which cost us about $70. This therm use includes all domestic hot water use and cooking, laundry, etc. in addition to heating.

Oh yes, do not forget windows are a big loss of heat. A typical thermopane window has an R value of around 2-2.5. A low-E window has an R value around 3.5.

In summary, I cannot tell you how much it will cost to heat your shop, but if you did not insulate well, most of your money is going into the ground and out through the shell. Let me know if you have questions.

Douglas Stockman
Penfield, NY

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tomp

01-18-2002 21:05:57




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 Re: Radiant In-Floor Heat in reply to Crank, 01-18-2002 19:15:35  
I have this setup in alaska in a 30x60 shop, I tried to heat slab with a 40 gallon natural gas water heater. It was in december and around 0degf. I ran continuously for 5 days and my return temp never came up. I have perimeter insulated with 2" blueboard and nothing underneath. I have a unit heater for backup that i'm using now and will try again next fall or summer. I was told by a few people it takes a long time to warm slab. I'd be interested to hear how your system works.

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