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Steel Chimney for Shop

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John - NY

12-20-2001 08:57:35




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I've built a large shop (38x52) with metal siding and I want to use wood heat. I've been advised to go through the side wall rather than the roof because of leak problems. I priced out stainless triple wall chimneys and I couldn't belief the cost. Would �" thick, 6" steel pipe work out if placed on a concrete base with stand offs from the building's exterior. Any other ideas? Thanks for your thoughts!

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Bill

12-21-2001 18:33:52




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
The replies to your question have been interesting. Several things that have not been mentioned is that there are two types of double wall chimney. First there is class "B" which has a gavinized outer pipe and an aluminized metal inner liner. The is appox. 1/2 inch space between the them. This chimney is made for gas appliances only. The other type is class "A". There are two types of class "A" chimney. One is a double wall, with appox.1 inch of space between the inside pipe, which is stainless steel, and the outer pipe. The outer can either be galvinized or stainless. There is insulation between the inner and outer pipes. The other type is a triple wall that has stainless inner pipe and 1 inch space, a galvinized pipe, a 1 inch space and a galvinized outer pipe. These only have air between the liners to cool the flue gases. The insulated double wall is used for oil fired equipment and wood burners because the temperature remains higher in the flue, which results in better draft and less cresote. The triple wall should only be used with fireplaces because they will not maintain the higher temperature needed for oil equipment and wood burners. The class "B" chimney should have 1 inch clearance to combustables and the class "A" chimney should have 2 inches of clearance to combustables. Always follow the directions of the manufacture of the chimney. The chimney should be two feet above a horizontal line ten feet from the roof. This is for good draft. The class "A" chimney is designed to withstand a chimney fire of appox. 1200 degrees F. Someone had mentioned that the flue gas could get up to 3000 degrees F. but they are much lower than that. The temerature in a fully involved house fire can reach 1700 degrees F. at the ceiling and appox 150 degrees F. at the floor. A fire in a metal building such as a mobile home or a metal barn, the temperatures at the ceilng have been measured a 2000 degrees and 2000 degrees at the floor due heat being radiated back to the floor. Now if you are still awake after all this boring stuff, you didn't mention if you were going to insulate the barn. I know from experiance it takes a lot of wood to heat an uninsulated metal building. Sorry about being so longwinded.

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Tom

12-21-2001 17:21:43




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
I have used sch. 40 5" pipe for a stove pipe sicne 1976. I am on my second one now, first one lasted about 18 years. They go from the condensation, creasote, from running the stove low. You don't have to worry about chimney fires. I would definatly go straight up through the roof. This will make it easy to clean. A horizontal run is terrible to clean. Have it dump straight down into the stove too if possible an elbow here like for a back exiting stove pipe makes it necessary to have a second person when cleaning the pipe, to how the debris out of the elbow to prevent it from forming a somewhat solid clog. A 6" pipe with heavier walls than a 5" would last longer too. Go for it. I used 1/8' X 2" stock to make joint overlaps and put a few 1/4" cap screws to hold it. There is less rust in the joints, they bet a build up that protects them. Build it in sections to make it possible to handle it. I used a steel plate in the roof with a larger pipe going through the plate. the stove pipe has a flange with a skirt that sits on the roof flange adapter pipe. Welding a pipe into the middle of a steel plate will cause the plate to warp. You man have to make a few cuts in the outside of the plate and weld them up to allow it to straighten out and lay flat.

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koop

12-24-2001 10:01:51




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 Re: Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to Tom, 12-21-2001 17:21:43  
I have been using 6" sch 40 pipe for 20 years with no problems



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Tom

12-24-2001 20:22:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to koop, 12-24-2001 10:01:51  
Yes, if you keep a hot fore going so you don't get a lot of creasote you will get more life out of a pipe.



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Hal/WA

12-21-2001 14:19:01




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
About 10 years ago, one of my neighbors put a woodstove in his mobile home. He didn't bother to buy an expensive mobile home certified stove and was on a very limited budget. For a chimney, he used about 8 feet of steel water well casing that he had sitting around, poking it straight up out of the top of the stove and between the roof trusses of the mobile home. Where it went through the ceiling, he had a peice of tin and had put several layers of sheet metal with air spaces around the pipe to protect the trusses. Outside, he used a flashing for a real metal chimney. I asked him how it worked and he said he had no problems with it, but could not get fire insurance at all with that setup. He lived in that mobile home for about 5 more years and heated entirely with wood. The last time I went by, there was smoke coming from what appeared to be the same chimney, but I don't know the people that live there now. When it was new, the well casing appeared to have a coating that was like glass inside and out. He didn't have much trouble with creosote because he used hot fires and the chimney was so short and straight. How he got by the building codes people I don't know.

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John - NY - Response 2

12-21-2001 10:11:33




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
You've all given me alot to think about - and that's the value of these discussion forums. I've revised my current thinking to going the relatively short distance out through the roof with triple wall pipe and carefully flashing it with the appropriate materials. It will also allow me to locate the heat source closer to the center of the shop. Thank you all for your valuable input. I wish you all the happiest and safest of Holiday Seasons!

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kevin

12-21-2001 06:28:17




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
Just use the double-wall black steel chimney pipe. still pricey enough, but much less than S.S. We heated primarily with wood at my last residence, and that chimney was at least 9 yrs. old when we left. The stove was already 11 yrs old when we moved there, and I believe that this is the actual age of the chimney as well. It suffered no deterioration in that time, just clean it a couple times a year.

-kb

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gene b

12-21-2001 03:53:52




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
its not what we think your first stop should be your insurance man and follow his plan before you put some money into a system then find out that it wont pass local codes ect the ins cos are getting stricter we have too many toys that run into more than pocket change



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John Ne.

12-20-2001 21:29:22




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
If you live in real cold weather country, may take some time to heat the chimney enough to get a good draw on the stove,,, might make the shop kinda smokey inside,,,, be sure also to extend the top higher than the peak of the roof, and a rain cap of some type might be a good idea,,,, John in Nebr.



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john r

12-20-2001 19:29:50




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
A friend made a chiminy for his coal stoker with heavy pipe inside a small culvert and insulated beteen with zonelite insulation



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John - NY - RESPONSE

12-20-2001 15:37:18




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
Thank you all for the thoughts and your experiences. The building is clear span with trusses 4' o/c with 2' between purlins. It has a 5/12 pitch with steel roof. I just installed a galv. steel ceiling across the truss chords with 6" of fiberglass insulation. I did have a concern about putting the woodstove in one corner of the building because of the size of the building, although I wired for two ceiling fans. The ceiling is 14' high. You may be correct about extending the chimney up through the roof, as long as I'm careful about flashing it properly. I sincerely appreciate your help!

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T_Bone

12-21-2001 07:09:49




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 Re: Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY - RESPONSE, 12-20-2001 15:37:18  
Hi John,

All Codes are written for safety and as yet I've never found one Code written that was wasteful.

The most important part of the fireplace is the chimmeny. The thimble(roof or sidewall penetration fitting) is very important as this keeps your building from catching fire.

Flue temperatures do reach 3000 degrees plus on a regular basis and it's very common on a wood stove to draw "fire" all the way upto the rain cap.

A thimble is made to where there is the main flue pipe, then 1" larger there is another pipe over the main flue pipe thus making a double wall thimble. A triple wall thimble would be another pipe installed over the double wall at 1" larger dia. This creates a 1/2" HEAT insulating air space around each pipe to cool the flue pipe sidewall temperature to a point that it will not catch the surrounding flamables on fire as the flue penetrates the roof or sidewall. This air gap is the "only way" to prevent the heat flow below a safe point.

The reason code spec's either double wall or tripple wall pipe on the outside of the structure is so trees, bushes, etc., will not catch fire by touching the flue sidewall. It doesn't not matter how thick your flue pipe is as it will heat almost to the same temperature as the inside flue temp.

Now when you use your 6", 1/4" single wall pipe for a flue it will have to be supported because of the excessive weight. The stand-off supports will also have to be fire rated or they will transfer heat just like the single wall flue and create another fire hazzard.

Most Codes call for a double wall flue from the roof thimble to the rain cap. Mobilhome code is always triplewall.

The inside flue from the stove discharge to the thimble is the only place where "some" codes will allow singlewall flue pipe. The curent code trend is to require double wall flue here.

Please give it alot of thought before you try and short change the wood stove install codes as it's your familys life your risking to save a few bucks.

T_Bone

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FYI- everyone

12-20-2001 17:10:21




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 Re: Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY - RESPONSE, 12-20-2001 15:37:18  
Each 90* bend in round pipe is equivalent to 12' of straight pipe. Thats why through the roof is always the better way to go.



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Jim/41_9N

12-20-2001 10:39:42




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
I just installed a wood stove this fall in my shop. I went straight up through the roof. At the roof I used Metalbestos pipe. I needed a through the roof kit, which included an 18 inch piece of Metalbestos, two angle brackets to attach to the roof, a piece of black stove pipe that adapts from the bottom of the Metalbestos to regular stove pipe, and a cap for the top. I had to buy a 36 inch piece of Metalbestos to raise it high enough above the roof. Also had to buy flashing "hood" to seal the roof. 20 feet of black stove pipe also. total cost was about $260.00. I went through a metal roof and no leaking. I used a strip of lead flashing along the top of the flashing hood. So far so good.

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Bob - KS

12-20-2001 10:32:03




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
I did a through the wall installation once and had to make the chimney taller to overcome the flow/draw problems caused by the extra 90 degree elbows it took. Seems that 'bending' the smoke flow slows it down. The other problem I had with the exterior chimney was keeping the heat up high enough in it to keep from forming creosote. That stuff burns hot when it catches fire. Now I have a very short run of triple wall out the roof (just enough to give proper clearance on the roof) and run single wall black pipe from the stove up to the triple wall. My stove isn't very high tech so I get up on a step ladder every 3 or 4 weeks and bang on the single wall with a screw driver handle or something and any creosote build up I may have falls back into the stove (usually very little). Then I just spread it out and start the stove up and the creosote burns in the stove. With the single wall I think you have to have 18 inches clearance from any combustable material going up but if your shop is clear span it is cheap to put up after the triple wall $$$ hit for the mounting hardware and a section of triple wall pipe. If you have joists to deal with you can shield those from the heat. So based on my experience - if you can go straight up the stove will start and draw much better.

Bob

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VaTom

12-20-2001 09:44:24




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  
I ran mine through the roof, up 22'. No problem with leaks but I do have a steep pitch. Need to have the right flashing. What I wanted was to have as much black pipe (the cheap stuff) inside my heated airspace as possible. It radiates heat all the way up to where it switches to stainless near the roof. Other benefit was I had minimal stainless to buy. For the next heated building I was able to find used stainless for a small fraction of new. Black was used in the same way. Be careful of required clearances to wood. I see no problem with your thick 6" pipe as long as it's black. Sure will be heavy to support. And when it goes outside and starts cooling off you'll get increased creosote. EPA certified stove will help. So will a convenient way to clean it out. You plan on welding it together?

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buck

12-20-2001 09:42:44




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 Re: Steel Chimney for Shop in reply to John - NY, 12-20-2001 08:57:35  

have a friend who did that very thing about 30 yrs go and the thing is still doing fine.



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