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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Comment on wrench quality

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coloken

05-21-2008 11:55:00




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I know some of you are going to hate me for this, but. Last week went to friends farm to help him remove drawbar from 400 Case tractor. I think bolt was about 1 and eight or 1 and quarter. Socket and one of those sliding handles with pipe cheater. Bent Hxxx out of it. Used Snap on breaker bar, first jump on pipe extender and broke it. Got out HF box-end, open end and with about 4 foot of 2 inch pipe and both of us, removed bolts. That set from HF probable cost 30 some dollars for the whole set, about what the snap on breaker bar cost. Not to run down American made, but if you can't aford it, that China stuff is a lot better than some of you give it credit for. Better each year.
Kenny

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Bill in IL

05-23-2008 05:06:55




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I don't think you can compare a box end wrench to a socket. Strength wise the wrench is going to win cause the torque is applied directly perpendicular to the nut instead of on top of it and then you add the connection of breaker bar to socket and the hinge on a breaker bar. I have broke many sockets and a few breaker bars but cannot recall ever breaking a box end wrench. The box end wrench is always my first choice on a stuck bolt if possible and if I can afford it, it will be snapon or more likely craftsman over HF.

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bc

05-24-2008 08:09:38




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Bill in IL, 05-23-2008 05:06:55  
I agree Bill but wrenches aren't perfect either. They have a slight bend to them which means you can't get a straight pull all the time and then the closed end has a tendency to pop off the bolt and bugger it up.



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bc

05-22-2008 20:49:20




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Point of clarification. I don't really "want" to buy anything chinese or from any other country for that matter. Its just that our american corporations are having stuff made over there and selling it here. We are kinda stuck.



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NawlensGator

05-22-2008 12:34:37




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I had to buy a 2 1/4" open end wrench 2 wks ago. American started at $240 and the china one from NAPA I paid $65 for. It looks well made and worked just fine.



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lucas boy

05-22-2008 12:10:27




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
i have had exactly the opposite results as you. lucas



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ohfred

05-22-2008 10:38:22




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Well, after reading the posts about wrenches...being a tool man myself, I see things in a machinists view. When the Asian tools first hit our shores, they hardly seemed more than cold rolled steel. I think some of the bolts/nuts were harder than the wrenches. But, knowing the Asians, they are not dummies, they are smart businessmen. They started at the bottom, even the twist drills they sent over here had flutes forged by hand and really crude. But, they took the money they made from these shoddy tools and bought modern (usually American made machinery) and the quality came up to a decent level along with the material the tools were made from. My thoughts then were, when they use the right materials and get their heat treat right...they'll be a force to be reckoned with. So now when I go to their store, I look for the letters CR-V on the sockets or labeling. It stands for Chrome Vanadium type steel which is what most of our American tools are made from. Their heat treatment is right on with these modern tools and the quality is right up there with ours. They can make a tool equal to our best (Mac, SnapOn or Craftsman and others) but I'm not gonna do it cause theres guys on here that will cuss me out for it...but realize,they can do it for less because of their cheaper labor costs. And this would be their goal...corner the market and then they can price stuff just like the Middle Easterners are doing right now. So there you have it...my opinion. Any doubters? I think the Asians check these boards for how the Americans think about their products...cause I have made comments before about tools and such...and a few months later, that thing was for sale from them.They apparently don't care about the shoddy tools that got them to this point...their only worry is about here and now and it's working for them. I don't know about you, but when I was in China, Japan and Taiwan I liked their fried rice...smile. ohfred

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Jiles

05-22-2008 06:22:29




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
It is somewhat comforting to know at least a few people in this country brag about Chinese products. As far as I am concerned, I have yet to see a quality product from China. This country is where Japan was 20 years ago. We are filling our landfills with CHINESE JUNK.



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Bendee

05-22-2008 07:21:52




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Jiles, 05-22-2008 06:22:29  
Look up in the sky, you may be able to see their satellite.There also was an explosion at LopNor.Think it was called Nuclear.



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Jiles

05-22-2008 20:04:24




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Bendee, 05-22-2008 07:21:52  
Sorry, Bendee, I believe you missed OUR point! I don't think any of us are interested in buying a satellite or necular capabilities.



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rockyhawaii

05-21-2008 20:44:29




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I really like the Metwrinch wrenches. I know they are Taiwan-made, but they do what I need, which is fit metric OR standard sizes without the constant guessing and trips to the tool-cart. I got hooked on them while in the towing business and have not regretted it one time.



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Crem

05-21-2008 20:35:11




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Kenny, are you comparing the strength of different types of tools? Was the Snap On breaker bar 1/2" or 3/4" drive? I would think that there would be a difference comparing a breaker bar and a combination wrench.



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Mark - IN.

05-21-2008 19:41:59




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
True story. Back in early '70's worked in an auto parts store after school called Fleeners. Been out of business for decades. But the used to carry a brand of tools called TAT (Thorson Allied Tool) that had a lifetime warranty much like Craftsman. I still have some of them myself. This guy brings in like 1-1/4" box wrench that he broke out, so I traded him a replacement under warranty. Well, that's also about the time that super glue came out too, and we sold that too. So, I super glued it back together and sat in on the counter. The store manager comes out and sees this wrench setting there and fumbles around with it, and gives me something to do. Joking, I take the wrench from him, act like I'm mad at being given a job and bash the wrench on the counter and it shatters right in front of him. At first his eyes got big as silver dollars like he's afraid I'm going to kill him after shattering that huge wrench, then he tells me to go out and get me some sexx that night to relieve some of my built up tension, and walked away.

Mark

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s.crum

05-22-2008 06:05:39




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Mark - IN., 05-21-2008 19:41:59  
Funny how times change. Nowdays you pull a stunt like the wrench thing and you'll end up charged with menacing, harrassment, making terroristic threats and not putting the toilet seat down. Probably 1 to 3 in the pen with a year of anger management training, 5 grand in fines and court costs, 10 grand in lawyer fees and 5 years probation. Not to mention a HLS rap sheet.



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Mark - IN.

05-22-2008 14:35:25




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to s.crum, 05-22-2008 06:05:39  
You would be right. Not supposed to laugh or joke anymore. It just aint right anymore.



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sammyd

05-21-2008 18:25:31




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I prefer Proto myself. Been in and out of the Snap-On truck a few times when the Proto dealer was slow to deliver though.
Craftsman ratchets these days aren't worth the trouble. Very cheaply made and Sears has a really hard time replacing the whole ratchet, would rather give you just the guts.
I have a few S&K things that I really like. A really old breaker bar with a half inch drive hole on the end, it makes a great extension and is my favorite.
Last place I worked we had some things you couldn't touch with a 1" impact. Had to get the Proto allen wrench and a 14 foot cheater to get them to pop. We also used some cheapie stuff there and it held up OK. Cut a few of the bigger wrenches in half and used them as slugging wrenches a few times, sure beats cutting a 60 dollar Proto.
Had a buddy that used strictly Cummins tools he got at one of those off the truck sales. They held up quite well.
I think the quality of the imports is increasing but it pays to give them a good look before putting down the cash.

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dr sportster

05-21-2008 18:13:56




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Just my opinion but I think the best breaker bar is a Crafstman.Also you broke the Snap-on with a pipe which means you needed a bigger breaker bar.I do agree the Chinese maybe will get it right eventually.However the earthquake proves they like to cut corners [when one stories collapsed as well as high rise].Some Harbor freight stuff is tempting like an airbrush compressor when the art store one is 200bucks [also Chinese]Harbor freight 69 bucks.I have ordered.Broke my Mac tools breaker bar several times.I gotta go chew on my Chinese toys.Bye

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bc

05-21-2008 18:03:54




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
My 2 cents here. I'm with trucker40 and stan.

There is a difference in the chinese tools. You can tell by looking how it was forged, the thickness, grinding on the facings, the detail in the wrench points, etc. To thin and they bend or strip out. There is some good stuff. I haven't looked at the HF wrenches lately but it is a matter of looking. I've seen some cheap stuff at HF (and the other semi truck sellers that come to town once a year) that I wouldn't touch and some stuff that will work just fine for me.

I buy a lot of cheap stuff cause I lose stuff and I don't do that much with them. I am not afraid of chinese but you need to look and compare. Same for wally world tools. They have some good stuff.

I have learned that cheap vise grips are a waste. They twist, strip out, don't hold, etc. so I threw out my cheapies and bought some Craftsman's. Same for screw drivers, it is nice to have some good metal there but I use a lot of cheapos too. Good crescent wrenches are handy too.

Wrenches and breaker bars aren't made for cheater pipes. I've busted them changing tires. Good chance you will strip the threads first with a cheater and/or strip and ruin the socket. Time for a cheap HF chinese impact wrench with some impact sockets to break those stubborn nuts and bolts and maybe a cheap HF chinese propane/mapp gas torch for a little heat. I like the HF 1/2" impact wrench and HF impact sockets that I have.

Put a 3 foot cheater on my neighbors lawn mower blade bolt and it wouldn't break loose last month. Pulled out the impact and 5 seconds later it was loose. Had a 1 1/8" hyd. plug on my 2606 that was all messed up and wouldn't come out with a wrench. All my weight on the impact and 20 seconds of pounding and out it came.

Bought a chinese 1/2" hammer drill. Don't use it much but it hurts when I do because it keeps throwing off little pieces from the brushes when it runs. But it is still working and I keep bare parts away from the brush area. Now I know why it came with extra brushes in the box.

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JCSinGA

05-21-2008 17:55:07




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I've found the things marked "professional" is not bad stuff. I bought a HVLP paint gun set the other day from them that sprays just as good as anything I ever held, around 50 bucks, 2 guns different size tips, cleaning brushes, plastic case. I used a HF impact wrench for years and it was for my job as an equipment mechanic, not ever once in a while at my shop at home I USED this gun. It finally broke the splined shaft that turns the anvil mechanism, motor still ran great just no hammer action. 5 years of hard use for $40 I'll take it. I only use MAC, Snap-On for specality stuff I cant get elsewhere, I will not pay a premium for a name.

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chvet73

05-21-2008 17:39:36




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I started teaching High School shop over 30 years ago. So I think I have some experience. Harbor Freight tools have their uses. No I would not put them in the school shop. But for jobs that I do on rare occasions at home they can save alot of money and work just fine. Just to name a few I have a 12" planner, pilot bearing puller, axel puller and variety of other items. All have served me well. No way I would claim that their quality is equal to even some of the Craftsman or Snapon I have but they sure have saved me money and time. Just bought a bunch of throwaway 1" brushes there same as HDepot but 1/10th the price. Those who do nothing but badmouth them need to look at their true place. They have their uses. Stan, Ken and Trucker I have alot of respect for what you guys offer on here. Much more than some guy who shows up once with only neagtive comments.

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GeneMO

05-21-2008 19:09:26




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to chvet73, 05-21-2008 17:39:36  
For the school shop you need to buy "disposable" stuff. I dont know how many of the vo-tech tools I have carried back to the school. My son and his buddies had "borrowed" them, and they ended up in my farm shop. One good reason for the engraving tool!!!


Gene



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Bernie Steffen

05-21-2008 15:43:42




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Whats the big deal. Buy what you like and can afford. I was a traveling mechanic for BNSF railroad for 25 years. Used mostly s-k stuff had some snapon some craftsman Thats just about it. I could break any of it if I tried hard enough. Like dear old Dad used to say,It ain't been built that can't be broken. Bernie Steffen



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doug in illinois

05-21-2008 14:47:50




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I have two 3/4 drive socket sets, both appear to be identical. My original set I have had since 1993, never broke a socket but did bend the breaker bar. Bought a Snap On breaker bar, have had long cheater pipe on it, it holds up well. Was at a pawn shop and saw the twin to mine cheap, missing one socket. Thought would be a good set to take with me to the field. Now I know why one socket was missing, that set breaks the socket even without a cheater pipe. Different date of production, likely different mix of what went into the batch. Figure just lucky if you do get a good set, but don't count on it. DOUG

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Spook

05-21-2008 17:13:57




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to doug in illinois, 05-21-2008 14:47:50  
Sounds like a heat treating problem. I have a real mix of stuff, I do buy some HF stuff, I am am not a professional wrench twister. If I bought all Snap On, I would be money ahead to pay somebody else to do my wrenching.



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Scooby Doo vs Mothra

05-21-2008 14:01:44




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
I just love it, some moron bragging about how he PREFERS Harbor Freight Chicrap, over American made QUALITY! Undoubtedly one of the time wasters that clambered onto the Snap-On truck one time, and couldn't afford to buy a screwdriver, and now has a hard-on for everything Snap-On. Or one of the shysters that tried to palm off a Chicrap clone screwdriver for warranty as genuine Snap-On and got caught.
Harbor Freight: Out and Out JUNK, but enough idiots continue to buy it, because they think they are getting a bargain.

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marlowe

05-21-2008 15:43:36




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Scooby Doo vs Mothra, 05-21-2008 14:01:44  
bet you drive a Toyota?



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Stan in Oly, WA

05-21-2008 14:37:47




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Scooby Doo vs Mothra, 05-21-2008 14:01:44  
Kenny is about as far from being a moron as a person could be. You're a person with an anger problem which you think of as a sense of humor---an anonymous voice shouting insults. Go ahead and insult me too. You're not especially good at it but I'm sure it's what you do best.

Stan



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coloken

05-21-2008 14:30:04




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Scooby Doo vs Mothra, 05-21-2008 14:01:44  
Yep. I guess I am a moron. Miles out in the country and two Snapon tools fail, but the HF got the job done. I did not say that a professional with pride in his tools shouldn't buy quality. I do say that a young guy who maybe touches a wrench once on a end once in a while is a fool for buying 1200 dollars of wrenches. Some of my fields are 3 miles from the shop and 46 miles to my house and the closest store. Only a moron would buy a 300 dollar set of wrenches to keep in the tractor another for the shop and a 3rd here at my garage. There again, the professional in one shop with a nice clean tool box in one place if a totaly different thing. I just get tired of ones like you that answer every kid with no money to spend hunders on stuff he will use once or twice a year. I see that you are one of those "guests" that big mouth, but never sign your name. Kennyp

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trucker40

05-21-2008 18:01:18




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 14:30:04  
Hmmm,wasnt trying to hurt your feelings.Yeah you got lucky.I thought I had it covered when I talked about Craftsman.Everybody has something from Harbor Freight probly.A breakover bar would not be my first choice of a tool to buy from Snap On or Harbor Freight,or was that a wrench you used?Whatever,it worked.I dont like Snap On prices either,but they let me make payments and came where I worked every week,and I can take a Snap On wrench and take a bolt that you round off with your Harbor Freight wrench out with it.My opinion is just what I said,you can like it or not.If I were you,I would buy Craftsman one time,and keep them where they wont get lost.Lots of people that farm have a tool truck they drive where they are working.I help a couple of farmers my self and we have a top box in the back of a pickup with Craftsman and black finish Snap On wrenches in it along with Blue Point,Napa,Mac and other stuff,bought over the years.If you use tools buy what quality you can afford.If all you can afford is Harbor Freight stuff,well thats all you can afford.I worked in a shop that had a sign that said"we have worked so long,with so little,we think we can do anything with nothing at all".You never have enough tools,but you can offset that a little by having good tools for the few you have.

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coloken

05-21-2008 20:02:41




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to trucker40, 05-21-2008 18:01:18  
Trucker40; No feelings hurt, on the contrary, a great respect for your opinions and especially for workmmen of your quality. I hope that you can continue to get as good or even better tools in the future. My point was that China stuff was getting better and good enough for some jobs. Have a good day and help keep us straightened out here on YTmag.
KennyP



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marlowe

05-21-2008 13:03:36




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
i have a lot of HF tools but will only buy the Pittsburgh brand they also have a life time warranty. broke a 3/4 box end wrench took it in and they gave me a hole set not just the one wrench and the only reason it broke is because i locked two wrenches together and i broke the ear off the open end. i wrench out in the feild a lot and loose tools so i would rather loose cheep good tools the expensive ones

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trucker40

05-21-2008 12:32:43




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Snap ON makes good wrenches and sockets,most everything else is a toss up,but they are guaranteed.I have broken a few of Snap Ons breakover bars and ratchets.I have a few times broke a Snap On socket.Buy a chest full of Harbor Freight stuff and try and make a living with it.You will need lots of bandages for when it slips off of something,a good torch to cut bolts out that are rounded so bad there is no other way to get them apart,somebody to keep running to the store to get more tools to replace broken ones,and be prepared to not eat very good as people you work for will get tired of it taking you 2 days to do a 30 minute job and hire the professional with the good tools.You should at least buy Craftsman as much as you can,and Harbor Freight for stuff you dont use much,maybe just a couple of times.Rarely you can find something like a breakover bar from a cheap place that will work,most of the time its not worth bringing home,and you end up buying junk to start with,then have to buy the good stuff to get the job done,so it costs you more in the long run.I did have a ratchet I bought one time for a dollar out of Snap On trucks junk box of tools he traded in,and I used it for 15 years,mostly to change oil with as older trucks had a square plug in the oil pan.Finally broke it a couple of years ago but it was made in Japan and not that bad.I beat on it and used my foot on it and a short cheater pipe.One day I used a longer cheater pipe and it broke.Stuff made in Japan years ago was just as bad if not worse than Chinese stuff is now.New stuff made in Japan is not too bad now.Stuff made in the USA is keeping some of us working.

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Stan in Oly, WA

05-21-2008 14:28:19




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to trucker40, 05-21-2008 12:32:43  
Hi trucker40,

I respect your information and advice on this forum. I give it a lot of weight. Because of that I'd like for you to tell me something about what you said on this topic. Is what you say about trying to use Harbor Freight tools to make a living based on your personal experience, or is it what you know to be true?

The reason I ask is because over the years, a lot of people on this forum have told of having good luck with HF mechanic's type hand tools, but almost always for personal use rather than for professional use. This always gets a response from a person who uses that kind of tools for a living saying what you said---they wouldn't hold up to constant usage. But nobody claims that they have tried to use HF tools professionally---only that they know that the tools wouldn't hold up to that level of use.

So what we get is a lot of people who use the tools saying that they seem pretty good, followed by people who don't and won't use them saying that they aren't any good, but saying it with a lot of authority because of the kind of work that they do. I'm not saying that an expert's opinion isn't valuable, but I'd like to have the chance to weigh experience against experience, opinions against opinions.

All the best, Stan

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trucker40

05-21-2008 17:39:04




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 05-21-2008 14:28:19  
I wrenched for 10 years,started with Craftsman,worked up to Snap On and Mac,but I do have a set of short Pittsburg wrenches that the open end is too flimsy on,and I bought a set of line wrenches from Harbor Freight and broke one of them the first time I used it.If you kind of use them to run nuts down with in a tight spot like I do the Short Pittsburg ones they will work for that.I have other stuff,a paint gun,which Im not a pro painter,but I painted a car with it and some other stuff.Like I say if you use it to get you by,it might work for you.I have worn out a few Snap On 9/16ths wrenches,it only takes a couple of years when you use them every day.After a couple of years of constant use,taking bolts out that guys with cheap wrenches cant get out,you have to buy a new one or break it.I dont think a Pitts burg will last me 2 weeks if I was turning wrenches for a living.I have a short temper anyway and I can see them flying across the field with a few well chosen words following them the first time I had to use the open end and skin my knuckles.Yes I use tools,and have used lots of different kinds,and while they are kind of surprising good for cheap tools,they are cheap tools.You can still buy lots of Craftsman tools for 150 dollars,and you might just get more than you can at Harbor Freight.Also if you use them every day your knuckles will thank you for the Craftsman.I have Craftsman tools that I wouldnt trade for Snap On and the other way too.

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Earl Ohl

05-21-2008 19:27:39




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to trucker40, 05-21-2008 17:39:04  
Trucker40 I agree with you! I was a school bus mechanic for almost 27 years before retiring. When I was in school learning my instructor told us "Buy the best tools you can afford." I started out with some cheep stuff from various sources when I started working. I soon got tired of bloody knuckles & constantly taking broken stuff back for replacement. Sometimes those cheap tools aren"t as cheap as they seem when you figure all those trips to the store. And also when the tool slips off and ruins some expensive part. Luckily I had a super boss who left me use his Snap-On tools. That way I got to see what quality tools were. We also had a good tool guy. If we needed a tool replaced or if we needed something right away for a job we had in the shop, he would do his best to get it to us that same day if possible. I also had very good luck with Matco Tools. I also have Blackhawk, Vise-Grip, Crescent, Utica, Williams, GearWrench, Craftsman and many others. I don"t care what brand tool it is, you can break it if you abuse it or if you"re using the wrong tool for the job.

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coloken

05-21-2008 14:53:32




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 05-21-2008 14:28:19  
Well said Stan.Yes, I agree 100 percent with trucker and respect his opinion. I just don't think that the guy that will change a fuel pump or fan belt in the next year should be told to "buy quality" what ever that is, now a days. Rather a 19 dollar 4in angle grinder that gets hot than 90 dollars an hour down at the body shop to fix a little bad spot. BTW, that 9 dollar air grinder with burrs is a very handy thing. Just looked at sale, that 19.95 angle grinder is on sale for 9.99...Think I would stay away for that one...Lets not get carried away here..There's a limit to every thing
Kennp

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RobMD

05-21-2008 11:59:20




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to coloken, 05-21-2008 11:55:00  
Yeahhhh... SOMETIMESSSS HF will save our a$$es at least once or twice...

But at least craftsman is guaranteed forever. when snap-on tools snap-off, then you're pretty much screwed.



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marlowe

05-21-2008 12:56:10




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to RobMD, 05-21-2008 11:59:20  
NOT any more now they give you repair parts or exchange it for a repaired one if it's a wrench you get a new one Sears has went down the shi-er since they got with Kmart



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edj856

05-21-2008 12:48:02




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to RobMD, 05-21-2008 11:59:20  
Hey, just send me all your broken Snap On stuff you can't get replaced, I've never had a problem. One of the guys at work bought a drop light, left it under a truck, drove over it twice with the tandems on a truck, sent out it out and Snap On warrantied it with no problems. The Snap On tools are a stronger, but also a little more brittle. I'm assuming it was a chrome socket and T-bar. The Chinese tools are softer and will flex and give more so they don't break, just like impact sockets are a softer metal so they don't shatter when put on the gun.

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TxFarmallFan

05-21-2008 12:13:16




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 Re: Comment on wrench quality in reply to RobMD, 05-21-2008 11:59:20  
How is that? I've never had any trouble getting any of my stuff replaced?



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