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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Off Grid Home electric therory

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tractormarkb

04-10-2008 05:58:32




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I have an off grid house. It has a Xantrex pure sine 2000 watt inverter with a 100 amp charger, 6-250 amp/hour 12 volt Batteries, 8000 watt gas generator and a 800 watt wind generator for when the wind cooperates.I plan on adding solar as the $ comes. My question is how many watt/hours should I be able to get out of this system? Thanks




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T_Bone

04-12-2008 07:59:40




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
Hi Mark,

You shouldn't draw down your battery's more than 50% of rated battery capicity or it severely shortens your battery cycle life. That's about 1.5kw/hr on your exisitng battery's.

You can add any number of PV's to your system as your CC will limit the charge to your battery's.

Tracking the sun will also produce the highest return from your PV's vs a fixed mount. Not hard to make your own sun tracking system out of pipe and a couple of bearings.

I just checked on generating to the AZ utility. Excess power has to be fed thru there auto switch box then metered back to you. You then subtract energy generated from enregy used and any excess gets credited to your current bill at retail rates with the excess generated carried over to the next bill cycle. If at the end of the year you have generated more than you used then the meter is reset and you LOOSE the excess credit or your just giving the utility the excess power.

Not only that but you still have to pay all of the "other" misc monthly fees. That means on my past $85mth bill, I would get a credit for $35 for the power used and still would owe $50 for the "fee's".

Ya right, like I'm gonna pay to supply my utility with "free" power.

T_Bone

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buickanddeere

04-10-2008 20:19:09




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
Solar cells do not work at night, wind turbines do. That engineer was in the business of selling the higher profit solar cells.



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jdemaris

04-11-2008 10:27:12




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to buickanddeere, 04-10-2008 20:19:09  
Yes - and besides that - during the daytime - quite often when the sun isn't shining, the wind is blowing -especially during non-summer months.



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Gerald J.

04-11-2008 15:08:46




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to jdemaris, 04-11-2008 10:27:12  
The staff at Home Power Magazine (who live off line and work off line) report that pinwheels aren't as cost effective as PV panels.

Years ago a consulting engineer said the pinwheel was nice if you enjoyed having a big pinwheel, but PV was better for energy and you had to plan on working on the pinwheel up on top the tower once a year at least.

Gerald J.



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jdemaris

04-11-2008 16:01:00




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to Gerald J., 04-11-2008 15:08:46  
The "pinwheels" can be very cost-effective when used as a supplement to a solar-electric system -and they are installed in a good wind-area. They can greatly offset the cost or gasoline, LP, or diesel fuel they'd be used otherwise to keep a battery bank charged during times of low sun.
Installing one on it's own is a different story - since it would need a battery bank, inverter, etc. As a supplment to an existing solar-system, none of those extras are needed.

As far as "consulting engineers" go, some are very good, and some are functional idiots. I've met and worked with both varieties.

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John730D

04-10-2008 16:51:26




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
Go get a used electic forklift battery. Can be bought cheap and will last for 20-30 years. Even if it is not good enough for forklift use, it will work for you for a long time.
My buddy has one that he has used for over 10 years and it has never been completely discharged.



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jdemaris

04-10-2008 13:57:30




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
Personally, I think you're throwing money away buying AGM batteries for solar-storage use. If you are planning on using alternative energy for a long time - you will always have batteries - unless you opt for grid-tie with no backup. So, you can figure battery cost by the month, forever. AGMs usually cost twice what a conventional flooded lead-acid battery will up front, and then again later. AGMs have a much higher early failure rate. As far as figuring watt-hours goes - depends #1 on where you are. #2 depends on the array voltage and type of inverter. Your inverter will have more loss than some others. Cheaper modified sine-wave inverters are often more efficient that higher-priced full-wave - but are not allowed for grid-tie. Generally speaking, you'll get more efficiency with a high-voltage array - at least 48 VDC - but you have to use a good controller.

In regard to wattage? Most people who get serious do all they can to make their home efficient first. I got mine down from 700 KWH per month down to 280 KWH before changing over.

I'm in New York with some of the poorest annual sunshine for the U.S. I have 5400 watts in solar panels and twin full-wave Outback inverters. We make a little more per year, then we use. But, we are grid-tied with a battery bank. If we did not have the grid-tie - we'd lose half the electricity we make. Right now - my panels are making 5700 watts (they're over-producing). Obviously, I can't use all that power right now. So, if the power company wasn't buying it, it would all be wasted. No one has invented a way to save excess power yet at the home - although I've seen some convoluted ideas. I've got 5400 watts of Kyocera 175GT panels. They give us an average of 4000 KW-hours per year. If we lived out west - AZ or CO - we'd be making 7-8000 KW-hours per year with the same array. Now, if we were totally off-grid - we couldn't make near what we're making - because -either we'd have less panels - or - we'd have more and waste all the excess power. If you are trying to figure losses - remember you've got several. The panels usually do not put out what they are rated for - even in bright sun. The inverter has loss, and the battery bank has loss. Then, controllers have different levels of efficiency. Then - the worse part - is the loss from not being able to store excess power when you make it.

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Cliff (VA)

04-10-2008 10:35:05




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
This is a SWAG.

The Batteries contain about 6x250x12 = 18 kWhrs

Your inverter efficiency I am guessing to be about 80%, and therefore

18 kWhrs * .80 = 14,4 kWhrs

Personally unless you are real frugal with your electricity I think that you are underpowered (wind generation capablity) and under batteried.

Good luck! HTH

Cliff (VA)



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Vern-MI

04-10-2008 07:06:14




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
A typical high power solar module generates 100 Watts and measures about 2 feet by 4 feet.

A 1 kilowatt Solar System, about 10-12 solar modules, requires about 100 square feet of installation area. Double the square feet area, if you are using thin film technology modules. This technology represents about 10% of all modules sold.

A sunny location (i.e. Los Angeles, USA) receives approximately 5.5 hours of sunlight on average throughout the year.

Monthly average residential consumption of electricity in the United States in 1999 was 866 kilowatt hours. (Source: US DOE)

A 1 kilowatt home solar system installed costs about US$9000

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dddd

04-10-2008 06:41:47




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 05:58:32  
Can't really tell unless you know what kind of usage is going on. Can you give us a cost figure for your system? and was it tied into existing or new construction?



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tractormarkb

04-10-2008 09:01:22




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to dddd, 04-10-2008 06:41:47  
The electric co. wanted me to cut down a path 30'wide by 2500'long next to my driveway, the beautiful tree lined driveway was why I Loved the land when I bought it, also cut at my expense. I had no prolems with the inspector-he thought it was great!
I bought 6-8D AGM Solar Batteries with 250 Amp Hr, 1275 cca for $624 each they weigh 167 lbs each-fun to move off truck into van then into house. Bought Xantrex prosine 2000 inverter/charger refurbished from Ebay for $700. Also bought wind generator from Ebay for $400 and 8000 watt gas generator from Northern for $1800(including shipping). The system works good. I have not moved in yet, Im concerned wether I will need more Batteries for storage.

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Gerald J.

04-10-2008 10:15:02




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 09:01:22  
Start with that. If you add solar panels you may find you have to dump power on a bright day, then you will want to add more storage capacity. Except for the cost of batteries you can always use more. Remember that they don't last forever and have to be replaced every few years, all together.

Gerald J.



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dddd

04-10-2008 09:50:49




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to tractormarkb, 04-10-2008 09:01:22  
i was under the impression that for batteries one could use deep cycle batteries normally bought at an auto parts store?



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phil lowe

04-10-2008 19:41:41




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 Re: Off Grid Home electric therory in reply to dddd, 04-10-2008 09:50:49  
Hey there My brother just installed a similar system.
He got 6 2 volt batteries I think and even on cloudy days his solar ampdraw is 30 to 60 amps got a 10 foot by 4 foot solar panel system and also a hot water in floor heat system ,,runs off small 12 volt solar powered pump..I don't know allot about it ,I 'know they had some engineer help them with the purchase and he told em wind mill not worth it !!! and they live right on a big ol lake,,he said wind turbines wear out ...
anyway For the hasle I think I'd a got the poles put in ,was gonna cost $20,000 for poles and required a 30foot easment,,so $33000 later there off grid ..

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