Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Concrete Surface Chipping Off

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Glenn F.

04-01-2008 13:43:17




Report to Moderator

The school I teach at is a high dollar building which was brand new at the beginning of the school year. However, over the winter all of the sidewalk surfaces have begun to chip off, leaving many rather large pock marks. I've seen this happen before, but this is a pretty bad case. What causes this? I assume it is related to salt/thaw/freeze....Was something wrong with the cement mix?

Thank you,
Glenn F.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
oldhousehugger25

04-03-2008 16:50:15




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
I have been working in construction for 40 years and one thing I'm glad of is they don't pour concrete like they used to. Here in Dallas, TX and I am sure most of the rest of the country back in the early days of concrete, they would deliver a wagon load of bank run gravel to the jobsite and a wagonload of cement in sacks. They would form up the steps and side walks and mix up big batches of a gravel cement slurry with hoes in tubs by hand and fill the forms nearly full with this weak muddy mixture. Then, after it had set a while they would shovel on a thin topping of sand and cement "Plaster". Much like stucco is done.

I have replaced tons of this type of concrete work. It all has separated at the joint between the gravel layer and the cement-sand plaster on top. Spalling in flat work is often indicative of way to hot a mix that the finishers then desperately splash with water and handfuls of cement dust trying to get a slurry going that they can slick out before they loose the pour. The combination of the concrete setting solid underneath and the finishers working to keep the surface slurry wet enough to smooth out creates a brittle surface on top with some type of weak zone a half inch down. Seepage causes water to get into the weak zone and when it freezes, up it comes.
Another cause of pocking of flatwork is when chucks of dried mud get in the mix near the surface. Remarkably the chucks of mud will remain unnoticed until enough water saturates it and it expands and explodes the concrete days or months later, making a pock mark. Cause is unclean materials.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Brian in MI

04-03-2008 06:09:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
To much water in the mix. Caused a high water to cement ratio,and when water evaporated left big voids for water to collect in and freeze thus "poping" the surface. If it had calicum chloride in it it would have little cracks perpindicular to each other forming small squares about 2" square. This will look like an alligators back "alligatored" These cracks are also called shrinkage cracks when the cal chlor dries (dehydrates) the conc and it cannot "cure" properly the conc cracks and pulls itself apart.
If the concrete is popping allready the entire pour may be bad and may not meet the designed compressive strenght. This would be a definate case of poor workmanship. Another cause may have been excessive use of water on the surface to finish the concrete, yeah it makes look nice, but thast is it. When the water evaporates there is no aggregate to help hold the surface together, it is just air and grout, not a good combination for longevity.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
PJH

04-02-2008 07:27:23




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
The state of Illinois uses an additive referred to as "air entraining agent" in thier road mix. One of the products was named Darex. You can tell the concrete that doesn't have the additive - the salt eats it up noticable quicker. The finishers complain about the mix being stickier with this additive, especially if the content is too high. Salt is the enemy of concrete, and we really pour it on the roads (and sidewalks).

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
NE IA

04-01-2008 19:59:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
We are building a small garage that I did not have time last fall to pour the floor. The floor is now a mess so I asked my former brother in law that runs the cement plant what happened. He said it was a sunny day, hot water, hot sand and 2%, plus windy to boot. The top dries fast, but the bottom hasn't come around yet. So the power trowler is surfacing a big gob of jellow so to speak. Many times lifting happens when you walk on the concrete while power trowling. Plastic throw away boots over heavy stockings, no shoes realy helps this problem. I told the home owner that this was the problem two weeks before I talked to the cement plant brother in law. For every problem with concrete there is usualy a very simple answer. Poor managment, and trying to get more done for the dollar seem to lead the pack. The first one blamed is usualy the cement company however, but very very seldom the problem.
The big problem nowdays like it or not is everyone wants a cheap price--low bidder wins, but there are no super cement men nor seldom any other worker that can do ten times what another bidder can. You get what you pay for.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
concrete guy

04-01-2008 15:18:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
glenn actually you answered your own question, the reason is because they used salt instead of sand. we dont warranty any work if they use salt, it will pop the top off every time. it has nothing to do with the mix. also calcium is used to help it set faster in cold weather. to much water will only decrease the compression strength. i could go on, but my point is the salt is what did it. from now on only use sand.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RobMD

04-01-2008 15:55:10




Report to Moderator
 what about concrete highways? in reply to concrete guy, 04-01-2008 15:18:07  
So, basically, we pay taxes for the salt guys to destroy our new concrete highways?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry/MT

04-01-2008 15:13:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
I had a floor poured and the ground was saturated clay. i offered the concrete guy visqueen to put down before the pour but he declined and poured right over it. We had additional rain that night but all looked well until the first freeze a month later. the entire floor looked like someone had taken a ball peen hammer to it. What happened according to the concrete folks is that the weight of the concrete on top of th wet clay forced the dirty water up through the concrete When the top was troweled smooth it was a mixture of dirt and concrete. Theconcrete folks agreed to reupply the concrete but the finisher would not agree to take the mess out and repour. I took him to small claims court and got a judgement and took the floor out myself and hired another outfit recommended by the concrete supplier to redo it.
Lesson Learned: If you don"t know any concrete finishers, ask the concrete supplier. They know who has a lot of problems and they want to stay away from the folks that do poor quality work so they don"t have to re-supply concrete.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Billy NY

04-01-2008 14:50:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
The finishing part of it comes to mind, if done in hot weather, wet concrete hydrates too quickly, have you ever seen what contractors do on bridge decks, burlap and a sprinkler system, after the it sets up and the finish surface is done. This keeps the concrete from hydrating too quickly (drying). This helps it to cure slowly Was the concrete placed in hot weather, contractors daily report for the job should provide that information.

You could have a bad mix, or they added too much water on site, weakening it, were any test cylinders taken and what were the results ? Could be a compressive strength issue, which could be determined from those test cylinder breaks, or existing with a windsor probe.

Concrete has a capillaries, and using salt in the winter will absorb into the concrete, when it contacts any unprotected steel like typical woven wire mesh it will expand the steel and cause it to spall, this used to happen a lot on NYS bridges, with reinforced decks, not enough cover over the rebar, it expands rapidly and fractures the concrete.

For some reason it is spalling and the cementitious material in the mix has not created the bond between the aggregates as intended by the mix design, there are a lot of variables to consider when trying to determine a material failure like this.


If this work is less than 1 year old, the building owner may very well have a claim for defective work or materials, this is one reason that retainage is witheld from a contractors monthly payment requisition, and may not be released for 1 year if stated so in the contract, a lot of times there is a 1 year warranty and it is stipulated that the retainage will not be released until that time period has expired.

If it was a state job, at least here in NY, there may be some recourse and retainage withheld, someone needs to investigate the problem and will end up dealing with the contractor that did the work, daily reports, concrete mix design that was submitted and approved, any test reports from test cylinder breaks, you could also contact an independent materials testing lab for investigative work. I have discovered defective materials intentionally placed by contractors, had a paving contractor do that once in Brooklyn, yeah watch your car he told me, try it buddy, you just try it I said, then I fried his @ss over it, because I kept good records everyday on site, over 60,000 S.F. + all the ponding low areas, rejected, cause was a clear violation of the specifications for both situations, he did not know how to set up grades either, could not use an optical level, complete idiot, they're out there and they end up on state jobs all the time. I had a testing lab take samples and the aggregate was recycled, clear violation of the spec's, + the bituminous material in it was below what the design called for, he made a deal with the plant to cut costs and I caught him red handed. These people think you're stupid I swear.


The concrete could have sat too long on the trucks, or it could have been a weak mix. I followed the specifications for 1000 psi mix design and ordered 20 something yards for an elevator machine room roof deck, interior deck and some infill areas including stairs. We did it after hours and cash deal to the regular shift guys who wanted to do it, the darned mix sat in the trucks longer because it was hoisted by crane in a hopper, and had to be placed, that and the light weight 1000 psi as specified by the architect/engineer was ordered, it was crap, it failed, the finish was spalling, so we chipped that off and when the contractor came in to level the concrete plank floors we had him coat those surfaces too, it bonded nicely and would suffice, but not for an outdoor exposure, never forgot that pour, what a disaster, it happens, instinct told me to order 3000 psi, but you have to follow the designers plans and specs, not sure if the extra weight for a regular mix would have been a structural issue, if it was, I'd have been liable for changing it unless signed off by the A/E.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
bo

04-01-2008 14:27:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
Probably had calcium chloride in the mix to prevent freeze up and it wasn't mixed properly....now spalling off.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Sparktrician

04-01-2008 13:59:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Glenn F., 04-01-2008 13:43:17  
Dont hold me to this, I am by no means a concrete expert....Seems i remember hearing in ag class in high school that could happen if finished wrong/incorrect. I seem to recall power trowels brought up, but cant remember the whole deal.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
504-2

04-01-2008 18:16:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to Sparktrician, 04-01-2008 13:59:55  
When they poured my drive way and garage floor the contractor said no salt for the first year and that meant drips from the car too.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
El Toro

04-04-2008 12:56:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: Concrete Surface Chipping Off in reply to 504-2, 04-01-2008 18:16:29  
That happened to my neighbor's driveway. She was told not to use any salt for one year. Well she didn't listen and the top of the driveway peeled off. Hal



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy