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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

110V table saw now 240

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fixerupper

03-17-2008 17:51:49




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I have a Craftsman 10" table saw that I bought about 15 years ago, and have been disappointed with several issues on it ever since. The main disappointment was low power. Craftsman advertised it as 3HP-VERY deceptive- and I was dumb enough to believe them so I didn't look at the tag on the motor. After I had used it awhile I did look at the tag and it read 1-1/2 horse 13A 110/13.5A 240. I've been running it on 110V because of the convience of being able to move it around but it's been about as gutless as anything can be. When it pulls down it just gives up- easily. All of the 110 wiring in both shops is 12 ga and my tester reads 111 Volts.


Well now it's in a permanent spot in the shop so I switched it to 240 and WOW, what a difference! It'll rip a 2X4 about as fast as the blade will take it and when it does pull down it has guts. This is a Craftsman motor, and I know almost nothing about electric motors so I don't know if other brands of motors would show the same response or not, but this one really jumped into action when it was given the extra juice. Jim

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Mike M

03-21-2008 09:28:17




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
I once plugged a Milwakee 4 1/2" angle grinder into a 220 outlet once and WOW did it grind ! Lucky I stopped before I burnt it up. Just needed a new brush. This was at Grandpa's old shop and back then they just wired regular plugs up for 220 and marked them. Well between being well worn and dirty I didn't see the markings.



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Gerald J.

03-20-2008 07:45:04




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
Like John T. said its voltage drop in the wiring. Been there, solved it a different way.

In my case I wanted the shop at the opposite end of a 40 x 60 tin building from the 200 amp panel. It was wired decently with 12 gauge wire and 20 amp breakers. And I wanted to start a shop vac at the same time as the radial arm saw (Sears 10", dating from about 1986). Starting both on about 100' of 12 gauge wire, the voltage would sag to about 92 volts and it would take 5 seconds for them to get up to speed.

I tried a 10 gauge extension cord the length of the building. It was better but not much.

The problem is that an AC motor requires the same watts whether its supplied with 90 or 125 volts, because the AC motor speed is set primarily by the frequency and so the shaft load is constant and to get the power it has to draw the watts. When the line voltage is down 10%, the line current is up 10%. When the line voltage is down 30%, the current is up 30% and that increase is really good at dropping the line voltage in what would ordinarily be good wiring.

I have a 240 volt 50 amp 4 wire welding outlet at the west end of the barn (shop area), so I made up a second panel. It has a 4 wire 50 amp range cord plugged into that welding outlet, then switched outlouts along one side. I know the phase of each outlet so adjacent outlets I know are on opposite phases. For the last 20', I shortened pieces of that 10 gauge extension cord so I have #6 from main to second panel, and 10 to the saw. I set up a relay with a switch box to control saw and shop vac at the same time with a convenient rocker switch, but with them on opposite phases. Now the radial arm saw has TORQUE and starts quick, and the shop vac keeps it clean. And the minimum voltage the saw sees is 115 volts.

Its all in limiting the voltage drop in the power wires and going to 240 volt motor wiring cuts the current in half.

Remember while starting the motor current will be 5 or 6 times running current and that's where the voltage drop is the worst. You went 240, I went STURDY wires, we both won.

Gerald J.

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RayP(MI)

03-20-2008 02:36:01




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
Donno, but I have a air compressor that came wired for 120, that I finally gave up and wired for 220v. According ti the diagrams in the box on the motor. Works 100% better. Did need to replace pressure switch with dual contact model.



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guido

03-19-2008 15:41:34




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
Hello fixerupper.
If the tag numbers are correct you just doubled your horse power.No wander it works better.
120Vx13A=1560W...240Vx13.5A=3240W YEAHHH!.
Guido.



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John T

03-19-2008 16:12:38




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to guido, 03-19-2008 15:41:34  
Fine ifffff fffff f it still drew the SAME amps if wired properly at 240 volts versus only 120 volts buttttt ttttt ttttt tttt if wired correct at 240 volts it ONLY DRAWS ONE HALF AS MUCH CURRENT as if it were wired for 120 volts. Sooooo ooooo oo the Power (Volts x Amps) IS THE SAME..... IE If volts double but current is one-half, Power stays the same

If you have two windings and connect them in series and apply 240 volts across the series connection, each individual winding only drops 120 volts buttttt ttttt t if you wire them in paralell, each sees the full applied voltage but each only draws 1/2 of the total current.

Hope this helps yall

John T

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guido

03-22-2008 12:55:04




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to John T, 03-19-2008 16:12:38  
Hello John T.
I have a question for you.
If a motor at 120V draws 10 amps it is using 1200 watts of power.
If the same motor operates at 114V and drawing 11.52 amps it is using 1198.28 watts of power.
Does that mean that the motor will cost about the same to operate per hour? In other words will it consume the same kilowatt hour at both voltages?
Guido.



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MarkB_MI

03-18-2008 16:56:02




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
It's all about voltage drop. If you have good service into your shop, and the wiring to your outlet is adequate, there's no reason that your saw shouldn't work as well on 120 as it does on 240. But every bit of resistance adds up, and if you have more than a couple of volts drop things quickly go downhill. Less voltage means the motor turns slower. The slower-turning motor requires more current, which increases the voltage drop, which means the motor needs even more current, and so on.

By the way, you might want to take another look at that nameplate. 13 amps sounds about right for a 1.5 hp motor on 120, but it should be around 6.5 amps on 240. And it's the lower current that makes 240 work: less current equals less voltage drop. Less voltage drop means higher motor speed. Higher motor speed means less current!

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Bernoulli/OZ

03-18-2008 13:55:13




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
I'm electrically challenged, but I refurbished stationary power tools for a couple of years and learned a little about motors. 240 is better than 120! The motor will run cooler therefor last longer. Everything I ever read about switching over said that the motor ran smoother and had more effective power.
Advertised horsepower has no meaning any more. Every manufacturer lies to a greater or lesser degree. You can figure 1HP to be 12.3 amps at 120, half that at 240. The 12.3 figure is not exact. It depends on the efficiency of the motor, but it's close; lots closer than the manufacturer uses. Basically they are giving you the number of watts being consumed when the lights go out and lying about the efficiency.
The maximum you could normally use at 120 is 1.5 true HP and that is pushing it on a dedicated 20 AMP circuit. If you are going to do a lot of hardwood ripping on your table saw, go to 240.

You can improve he efficiency of your saw in other ways if 240 is not an option. Cast balanced sheaves, link belt drive and using the proper blade for your task are easy improvements to make.

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Dave Sherburne NY

03-18-2008 10:51:47




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
I had a Sears radial arm saw with a dual voltage motor too, poor saw on 110 pretty good on 220.



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circus

03-18-2008 09:14:30




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
You lucky dog. My craftsman table saw is a wimp with no 220 option. A larger motor costs twice the saw's value. I hate you. ha



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RedJohn-2

03-18-2008 07:50:12




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
fixerupper, Emerson made the Craftsman radial 10" saw about that long ago. They may also have made the table saw. To your problem: you stated the line voltaage as 111v. Should be closer to 120v, so there's some problem with line voltage drop regardless. You stated you switched from 110 to 240; I don't know how you rewired the motor, but I also believe you were running a motor on 110 that was either wired at that time for 220, or the motor was simply incorrectly wired previously. There should not really be any more power at 240 vs 120...just cheaper to run because of half the juice.

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fixerupper

03-18-2008 13:33:27




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to RedJohn-2, 03-18-2008 07:50:12  
OK, I hope you can understand my description here, cause I don't know electrical jargon. To change voltage settings in the motor there are two movable 'links' that can be swiveled and hooked together to make the motor run on 240. These 'links' are separated to make a 110 situation. The 'links' are in the same cavity the wires go into. No wires are moved and the switch isn't changed. I just twisted one of the prongs on the plug so the plug will work in the 15a. 240 plug. It's rather simple and I've never seen anything like it.

I just did a voltage check in the shop and it's currently 120.Thanks for the response. Jim

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Bob

03-18-2008 12:00:07




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to RedJohn-2, 03-18-2008 07:50:12  
Running a motor on 240 Volts rather than 120 Volts is NOT "cheaper to run because of half the juice"!

The WATTS used remain the same, and "WATTS over time" (kilowatt hours) is what your meter measures, and what you pay for, and the "KWH used" will be more or less the same, whichever voltage the motor is running on. There's NO such thing as a "free lunch"!



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John T

03-18-2008 06:50:42




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
Fixer, Actually you have the same Power (Volts x Amps) REGARDLESS if at 120 or 240, it simply pulls twice the amps at one half the volts (again same Volts x Amps = Power). One thing that could affect performance quite significantly, however, (between 120 and 240 operation) is if the conductors were on the small size you could have been dropping excessive line/cord voltage when running at the 120 volts which affects performance, yet at 240 volts theres less current meaning less line/cord voltage drop. i.e. if the conductors were on the small end Id expect better performance when using a higher voltage (less current n less voltage drop)

John T

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evielboweviel

03-18-2008 07:04:04




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to John T, 03-18-2008 06:50:42  
John T I understand the theory of what you are saying.
However(has to be one) about 20 years ago had a Powermatic Saw at work that wasn't happy with the power at 208v so rewired to 480v changed heaters,coil in starter etc. That was a new saw, came up to speed right now and we added a power feeder to it. By theory should not have changed as it was only >20 feet from 208 panel and about 120 feet from 408 busduct
Ron

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John T

03-18-2008 07:18:09




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to evielboweviel, 03-18-2008 07:04:04  
Ron, Believe me, I also hear what youre saying, Im correct in strict theory (regarding voltage n current if the only factors) buttttt ttt in the real world of reality there may ALSO other motor efficiency factors that may come into play making for less heat or magnetic losses at the higher operating voltages. Its been wayyyyy yy too long since I was a budding pimpled engineer at Century Electric Motor Co to rememebr alllll that stuff lol, my old friend Gerald J OR jd who are more current regarding motors may have more info??

John T

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Billpa

03-18-2008 04:59:40




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  

it almost sounds like you were running it on 110 with the motor wired for 220,



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Dusty

03-18-2008 04:49:27




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
Even though you have #12 wire I'll bet that the receptacles are 15 amp. And the cord to the motor might only be #16.



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fixerupper

03-18-2008 05:40:49




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to Dusty, 03-18-2008 04:49:27  
Good idea. I'll look at the cord size today. I've had many different types of blades on it over the years, and I'm using a good ripping blade now because it's mainly used for ripping.

I do know how a 220 wired motor acts on 110, and this thing had more power than that. Like I said, I know almost nothing about motors, but this motor seems kinda small physically for 1 1/2 horse. Anybody know who made Craftsman motors fifteen years ago?Jim

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nw_bearcat

03-18-2008 10:38:53




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-18-2008 05:40:49  
15 years ago, Craftsmans should have been still being made by Emerson Elec. Emerson now mfg's the Ridgid tool line for H.D.



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36 coupe

03-18-2008 01:20:01




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 Re: 110V table saw now 240 in reply to fixerupper, 03-17-2008 17:51:49  
The so called 110 volt line reads 122 volts here.Have you read the voltage on your 240 line?Sears does use the term peak hp,if you did use peak hp for any lenght of time the motor would burn.A dull blade will over work a motor.



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