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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Geothermal

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caseman,2

02-27-2008 14:21:07




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I know this has nothing to do with tractors, but maybe it does with some tractor owners. Propane in our area just took a .55 jump this brings it to 2.60 per gal. I'm thinking about a geothermal heatpump, but know nothing about them. I'm wondering if some of you have these installed and can give me some insight about them. Are they high maintence? Do they do a good job of both heating and cooling? How is the payout? Thanks in advance.

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UsedToBeIowaDave

03-04-2008 16:43:02




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
Getting in on this late, 5 years ago the not-planned-for cost over-run on a MAJOR house addition/renovation was a $15,000 ground to air geotherm system. We doubled the sq footage and needed an all new system to replace the old electric furnace. We loved the old furnace-even heating and reasonable utility bills. We were prepared to go with a larger capacity electric unit, but our builder really pushed us to go with the geotherm upgrade. We're on 17 acres and have three horizontal ground loops. We were told we'd recoup the cost of the system in about 7 years. It's difficult to track since we're on quarterly estimated billing, but 2 years ago it seemed we were on track to recoup it in about 6 years. We had one of 2 circ pumps burn out right after the warrantly expired, couple hundred bucks. Our power's not the cleanest and have had our share of bad weather outages since installing it, I don't blame the manufacturer. (Florida Heat Pump). The heat is comfortable (forced air). We set the thermostat and never touch it. The forced air fan runs quite a bit and we humidify in the winter, which we were used to with the electric furnace. Don't know if central humidification was an option, would look at it hard if had it to do again. I'd highly reccomend a reputeable local installer and a system that a reputeable local person can service, unless you're comforatable doing some or all yourself. I'm told it adds a lot to a homes' resale anymore.

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TomIN

02-29-2008 11:08:38




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I built a weekend/vacation home about three years ago and explored geotherm heat as an option. In general theory, the only difference between a traditional air to air heat pump and a geothermal (water to air) heat pump is that the traditional unit uses an electric fan to blow air through what amounts to an big radiator; and the water to air unit uses an electric pump to push an anti-freeze solution through a long tube that is buried horizontally in a trench, vertically in a well, or sunk to the bottom of a pond.

Again in theory, the geothermal heat pump should be more efficient because it is transferring heat or cold to a relatively constant soil or lake temperature while the conventional heat pump is transferring the heat or cold to the outdoor air which varies in temperature much more--depending on climate.

Reliability issues between a traditional heat pump and a geothermal heat pump amount to how fast an electric fan will fail as opposed to how fast an electric pump will fail or a leak will develop. Other parts of the system are virtually identical.

The geothermal system should cost more because of the hundreds or thousands of feet of tubing that must be buried or sunk in a lake and the antifreeze solution that must be run through the tubing. The length of tubing required will depend on the soil type. Wet soil transfers heat better, so requires a shorter amount of tubing. The cost of tubing and antifreeze for a typical system should cost under $1500. The cost of burying this tubing in trenches, wells, or on the bottom of a lake will vary with differnces in soil conditions, labor rates, equipment rates, etc.

I eventually chose to go with air to air heat pumps. I bought the equipment locally and my builder set it in place. I paid a local licensed heating contractor about $500 for the hookup. If I would have gone geothermal, I would have had to hire an installer from out of the immediate area. The estimates for geothermal seemed to allow for the added cost of the tubing,its installation AND an additional $8,000 profit margin. There is little competition in installing geothermal, and the dealers charge what the traffic will bear. For me, it made much more sense to spent a small portion of the price difference on more insulation, better windows, etc.

Geothermal should be feasible as a do it youself project. The only "technical" issue is insuring that the tubing doesn't leak. The material needs to be joined by heat fusing, and special heat fusion equipment is needed. (it is virtually the same tubing as used for natural gas except for the color.)

I have several friends and relatives who have used geothermal heating for up to 20 years. The only minor complaint I have heard is that the system may seem more noisy because the entire system is installed indoors.

I assume that you are defining "payout" as the ratio of cost of a new system to annual savings in energy costs. If you currently use a lot of propane and if can buy a geothermal system on the cheap, your payout may be good. If you currently don't use much propane and pay through the nose for a new system, the payout will be worse. However, before you invest in a new system of any kind, I suggest that you strongly consider whether you could lower your annual energy costs just as much by adding more insulation, weather stripping, insulated windows, etc.

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Gumby

02-29-2008 10:29:52




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I had two geothermal Water Furnace brand units installed in my house (a four ton and five ton). They both work off the same loop system, which is really big (7 runs all tied together via manifold). I get about a 50% break on all electricity that runs through it by the power coop-- they do that to encourage use of the geothermal. I love the system. No outside fans running for the central air is a big plus. Very cost effective. The electric backup coils in the furnace only have to kick in when the temp drops below about 12 or 10F (western Illinois area), otherwise enough heat from the ground can be extracted to keep the house very comfortable. I highly recommend geothermal.

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dave2

02-29-2008 02:16:23




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
You guys are making me think (gotta open the windows for some ventilation)..... .. I've got radiant heating and no AC. I've got a basement under the barn that holds a constant 50 degrees. I don't know how I would use that to make the heating more efficient, but have been brainstorming for the summer.
It's wet and unusable now, but my plan this summer is to set up a sump pumb, level the floor out with gravel and set up as much rain water storage tanks as possible. I was thinking to run about 1"ID pipe a few passes over the floor first, fill them with water and connect them to the radiant system with a pump and pump 50 degree water through my radiators. Would that have enough cooling effect? Or should I stick to my day job?

Dave

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buickanddeere

02-28-2008 09:10:17




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
If the outside air temperature drops below freezing. An Air to air heat pump rapidly looses efficiency and is little better than electric resisitance heating. Air to air efficeincy rapidly drops at air temps over 80-90+F
Ground source water supplies a steady 50F source for efficient hetaing or cooling. Only real concern is to have enough water flow from a well or pond. Or if the water is from a ground loop system. Trouble will occur if there isn't enough tube burried to exchange sufficient heat.

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john *.?-!.* cub owner

02-28-2008 08:58:41




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I have owned a Water Furnace www.waterfurnace.com for 20 years, and has done a good job, however, the ground loops were not installed properly (too shallow, and slow leaks), and last fall the unit itself started giving problems, so I decided to replace the complete unit. I went with a Hydro-Temp unit, all new loops, etc. It cost about 9k for the unit and piping (2 ton), plus 1700 for the trenching. In my area (about 70 miles south of St. Louis), trenches work fine,. The normal size is one 2 foot wide, 6 feet deep trench 250 feet long per ton. further north it is recommended to use vertical loops, each 200 feet deep, at the rate of one well per ton. The vertical loops are drilled by a well driller, the pipes installed, and then the wells are refilled with alternating layers of grout and sand. Unless there is a caving problem, no casing is needed.
The plus side of a geothermal is the efficiency. The minus side is both the initial expense, and the fact that if it is sized properly, the air discharge is low temperature in heating, around 100 degrees, so it is slow to change the temperature in the house. I figure my first unit, 20 years ago paid for itself in savings in around 2 years. This one was considerably higher, but the electric rates have not risen proportionally to the cost of the unit, so I figure 4 to 5 years pay back on it.

go to www.hydro-temp.com not only for info on the one I have, but also for a lot of energy saving tips.

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caseman,2

02-28-2008 07:55:17




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
Go to google and type in geothermaldiy.com and several D.I.Y. will come up.



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ytr1903

02-28-2008 07:36:28




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to soundguy, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  

caseman,2 said: (quoted from post at 06:45:17 02/28/08) I live in Okla. Where the oil products are supposed to be plentiful. Thanks to all of you fellows, I wonder if a D.I.Y. kit would be hard to install. There are some of these on the market. I live on a farm so have plenty of room for trenches.


Caseman,

I have been bantering around installing a geothermal system in our someday-to-be-built log home. I haven't been able to find any DIY systems on the internet. Would you mind sharing the sites that you have found? I am convinced that geothermal is a great way to go to save energy dollars, but that initial cost is a killer. Doing the trenching oneself and installing the heat pump doesn't seem to be beyond the scope of an experienced DIY'er. Sizing it correctly is a big question mark in my mind, though.

Thanks,

Tom

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Mike in Ohio

02-28-2008 06:39:07




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
How much of the cost is the parts and how much is labor to install? I would think that all that trenching would be a big part of the price. If a person had thier own equipment that should bring the of installation down alot wouldn't it? Thanks alot, Mike



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caseman,2

02-28-2008 05:45:17




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I live in Okla. Where the oil products are supposed to be plentiful. Thanks to all of you fellows, I wonder if a D.I.Y. kit would be hard to install. There are some of these on the market. I live on a farm so have plenty of room for trenches.



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cj3b_jeep

02-28-2008 04:59:23




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
Geothermal is pricey to install, but pays off in the long run. My brother in law keeps trying to get me to buy and aux. heat pump to suppliment our gas forced air. Price is about 1/3 the geothermal and produces heat for about the same cost. Plus provides A/C int he summer (so does geothermal).



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Eric SEI

02-27-2008 18:31:20




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
My BIL used to bad mouth geothermal, but now that Carrier sells them they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Yes, he is a Carrier dealer.



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moonlite 37

02-27-2008 17:39:26




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I have a 2 1/2 ton Waterfurnace which was installed in 1990 and it works great and very economical. I have 1200 feet of pipe out in the pasture. I think the Y shaped trenches are about 300 feet long with 4 lines in each trench at 6 feet deep and the lext layer 4 feet deep for a total of 4 lines in each trench. I think my duct workis larger than that used by a gas furnace as the heat at a register is only about 90 - 100 degrees. total cost including excavation and duct was about $7,000 and I have a 1300 sq ft house

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Gary from Muleshoe

02-27-2008 17:35:38




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
We bought our house with one already installed. I had never used one before but I am now convinced they the way to go. While other are paying high gas bills we are around $130 at the highest. We have been in our house since 1998 and had to replace the condenser once (About $400) I believe the money we have save in heating and cooling has more than paid for the unit and the one repair cost.



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Nick in NE

02-27-2008 15:02:13




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
Hey caseman wherebouts are you located? Just wondering because of the propane price, here in south central Nebraska it is 1.92. 2.60, YIKES!!!



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woodbutcher

02-27-2008 14:55:02




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I had mine installed when we built the house 13 years ago. I am well pleased with it. I've had to have the circulating system pressure adjusted and a little shot of freon a few years ago, but other than that it hasn't required any maintenance beyond regular filter changes. I don't know how to compare it to propane, but it has saved a lot compared to resistance heating. One unexpected bonus for me: the county tax appraiser came to look at the house shortly after we moved in. She couldn't see a condensing unit anywhere outside the house, so she assumed we didn't have central air. That has saved us several hundred a year, even though when I go to protest my tax bill, when they ask me if I have central air, I tell them that I do.
Butch

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circus

02-27-2008 14:39:11




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
The topic is discussed 2 pages back.



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old

02-27-2008 14:38:28




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 Re: Geothermal in reply to caseman,2, 02-27-2008 14:21:07  
I had a new air to air heat pump installed this summer and so far I like it. Cost for power went down about 40% or so. Last winter I had electric bills of around $300 plus and this year around $150 give or take a little bit. Cost me $4800 for the heat pump set up AC/heat



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