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Electric(volt) question

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Bradyman

02-14-2008 07:41:28




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Why dont we get a shock from a 24 volt battery?
A 6 volt battery needs a coil to excite the volts to get a shock. Is a 110 volt battery made? Would you get a shock off of it. I guess I know a little about electric but dont understand how it all works.




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Sean McDonnell

02-17-2008 20:13:59




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
It'd definatly a case of having a conductive path for the electricity to flow. I work in a manufacturing facility and usually the floor as well as the equipment is wet. I can assure you that 24VDC control voltage will give you a good jolt when your wet. Most of our power supplies are about 10 amps and will definately let you know they are on. I can also testify that 90VDC motor controllers will make you wish you had checked that meter reading a second time, lol

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Nolan

02-15-2008 17:16:28




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
The answer is R.

As in resistance.

The built in resistance of your skin, even when wet, is high enough to keep the low voltage (pressure) from pumping much juice (amperage) through you. It's an ohm's law thing. :-)

Your tongue has very little resistance, that's why licking a 9 volt battery stings. There's very little current capacity in that little battery, so it doesn't hurt much. Don't try licking your battery cables hooked up to your truck, you may well regret it because there's a lot more amperage capacity there.

Interestingly, if you build one of those electric rust removing bath systems and place your hand in between the anode and cathode, you'll feel the current. Get your hand close to either of them, and it can really hurt.

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jeffcat

02-15-2008 08:27:07




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
actually testing the old 9volt with your tounge is better cause it provides a load as where the meter does not. Jeffcat



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T_Bone

02-15-2008 00:19:21




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 Re: There's No Correct answer!!! in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
Hi Brady,

This is one of those questions where there's no correct answer for everyone.

We all have a difference tollarence to electricity wheather it be DC or AC. I would never say one voltage is safe as then someone will come along that's ultra-sensitive to voltage and get zapped deader than a door nail from a 6v battery.

Electricity demands respect from everyone requardless of the voltage or current in question. That way everyone will survive!!!

T_Bone

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buickanddeere

02-14-2008 20:14:27




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
Oh yes, the DC bite. I've jolted myself a couple of times while chasing ground faults on 125VDC & 250VDC battery banks.
Wiping down the cells with a damp cloth to remove conductive sulphuric acid acid deposits/salts is usually when it happens. No problems near the middle of the battery bank. However getting out towards the ends of the battery bank while the Ground Fault Detector is in operation. That will tend to tend to lure you into a false sense of security, then bite you as it swaps polarity.

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KEB1

02-14-2008 12:04:58




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
Think of voltage as the pressure that is forcing current (in the form of electrons, generally) through your body. Current is a measure of how many electrons are flowing, analogous to gallons per minute in fluid flow. Resistance is analogous to a flow restrictor in a fluid path; higher resistance takes more voltage (pressure) to force a given flow of electrons through it, lower resistance will allow more electrons to flow for a given voltage.

Electricity has two effects on the human body. The first effect is to interfere with the flow of impulses along the nerves. This is what we feel, and what causes peoples hearts to stop, convulsions, etc., under certain conditions. The second effect is thermal, i.e., burning as a result of the current heating up the flesh its flowing through (just like an electic heating element on a stove).

In terms of being able to feel a shock, that is determined by the amount of current and what part of the body its flowing through. As noted above, the amount of current is a function of both the resistance of the body and the voltage trying to force current through it.

If you reduce the resistance of your body, such as having wet hands, it will take less voltage to force enough current to flow for you to feel it, and you might get a noticeable shock from a 24 volt battery. The 32 volt number that keeps being bantied about is kind of the average voltage that is required to force a "feelable" current through an average person with dry skin. Some people would feel a shock at a lower voltage, and some would require a higher voltage.

Whether or not you feel a shock is also a function of what part of your body the current is flowing through. A lot of people can feel a shock by putting their tongue across the terminals on a 9 volt transistor radio battery, although I don't. The combination of wet, salty skin and a short path allow more current to flow with a lower voltage.

With regard to the question below about an ignition coil, essentially what happens is the low voltage, high current flowing through the primary winding builds up energy in the magnetic field surrounding the coil core. When the primary current is interrupted, the magnetic field collapses, and the stored energy is returned to the secondary windings as high voltage with low current.

Even though the current through the high voltage side of the coil is low compared to the current initial put into the primary winding, its still enough to give you a good jolt, and the voltage is high enough to essentiall force all the current the coil can deliver through your body.

At DC, a 110 volt battery will give you a pretty good jolt. I know this from experience, having at one time (I'm dating myself) worked on mechanical teletype systems that used a 120 volt DC current loop to operate the selector magnets. (what really hurts is when you jerk your hand back from the shock & rip the back of it open on the adjacent row of pin blocks).

Finally, the 120 volt AC circuit in your house actually has a peak voltage of around 170 volts, which bites pretty good and under some circumstances can actually kill you.

Keith

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tech4

02-14-2008 13:46:11




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 I agree with Keith in reply to KEB1, 02-14-2008 12:04:58  
Keith, I agree with your explanation the best. I well remember those old 120 volt DC 60 mil teletype circuits and I got stung too many times.



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jdemaris

02-14-2008 11:43:19




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 Lick a 9 volt battery . . . in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
I forgot to ask - haven't you ever touched your tounge to a 9 volt transistor-radio battery? Even a 1/2 dead one can give a good zap. Use to do it a lot when I was a kid - maybe that's my problem now? I still do it once in awile for a quick-check on smoke alarm batteries. Yeah, a voltmeter is better.



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TXFarmallFan

02-18-2008 09:05:51




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 Re: Lick a 9 volt battery . . . in reply to jdemaris, 02-14-2008 11:43:19  
I never was, well, out of it enough to do that. Shocking myself didnt appeal to me then, sure doesnt now.



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36 coupe

02-17-2008 14:48:15




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 Re: Lick a 9 volt battery . . . in reply to jdemaris, 02-14-2008 11:43:19  
Hope you dont try that on a 90 volt.



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guido

02-14-2008 16:07:16




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 Re: Lick a 9 volt battery . . . in reply to jdemaris, 02-14-2008 11:43:19  
Hey JD
Ditto.
guido



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jdemaris

02-14-2008 10:46:53




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
You can get a shock from a 24 volt battery bank - not a big one, but enough to be annoying. I've felt the sting from it many times when my hands were wet. Try touching your land-line phone wires with wet fingers and it gives a pretty good jolt at 48 volts. When I worked for the power company (and my dad before me) most of deaths were from 120 volt 60 cycle current, not the 13,000 volt or higher lines. The high voltage tended to burn something awful but not kill right away, whereas the 120 VAC would screw up your heart rhythm from the 60 cycles.

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bellyacre

02-14-2008 10:13:46




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
I find this electrical stuff very interesting ( you can tell by my burnt screwdriver collection).My question is, when we run 12 volts through a coil we get arm jerking, elbow smashing, naughty word power . What is the proper terminology for what happens in that little box? Are we increasing volts, creating amps or increasing current?



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John T

02-14-2008 14:16:58




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to bellyacre, 02-14-2008 10:13:46  
The stahdard garden variety "Coil" in the Kettering Coil Ignition system functions as a Step Up Transformer. It can increase the small 6 or 12 volts applied to the low voltage primary to several thousand volts in the high voltage secondary sufficient to get a good shock and to arc jump current across a spark plug gap to ignite the fuel..... .

We cant describe here in a paragraph what I spent yearsssss s in study in electrical engineering school and what can fill entire libraries buttttt t hope this can still help

John T retired electrical engineer

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old

02-14-2008 10:45:16




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to bellyacre, 02-14-2008 10:13:46  
If I remember right its call inductance. It increases volts but the amps drop way low. A coil will put out around 20,000 volts give or take a little but very low amps



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AndrewFromNS

02-14-2008 09:45:44




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Vern-MI, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
Theres an old saying...Volts Jolt, but Current Kills.

According to that theory, and the experience I've picked up working with electricians at work for several years, a single volt is enough to kill you, if it's backed with enough amperage. On that same token, thats why the 30KV from an electric fence or 75KV from a police Taser doesn't kill you...wicked high voltage, wicked low current.
~AR

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John T

02-14-2008 08:16:16




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
Brady, THE "SHOCK" SENSATION IS A FUNCTION OF THE AMOUNT OF CURRENT FLOW

Sooooo ooo if you start with Current = Volts/Resistance and then plug in 24 volts and the extreme high resistance of our skin/body, theres just too little current flow to receive much of a shock sensation. HOWEVER if our skin is wet or sweat covered with salt water etc there might possibly be sufficient current flow to receive some degree of a shock sensation.

Buttttt consider if the voltage is 120 (household) then there is indeed enough current to get the painful shock sensation

Its possible to get about however much DC voltage you want by adding battery cells in series.

Hope this helps

John T

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old

02-14-2008 08:01:32




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
Now this is just theory but. The human body has a resistance up to 32 volts so again in theory it takes 32 volts to be able to get a shock in perfect conditions. That said in the right conditions a 12 volt battery will shock you and if done wrong a 12 volt battery can also kill you. Been way to long since I worked with this type of stuff for me to remember much of it but thats gets you some ideas on zap-u-trons

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RayP(MI)

02-16-2008 17:36:22




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to old, 02-14-2008 08:01:32  
There are stories of people getting killed from a 12v battery. Particular story I have heard was involving someone standing in the water alongside his boat, and got it from boat battery.
Have no way of verifying this story, however.



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old

02-16-2008 17:59:45




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to RayP(MI), 02-16-2008 17:36:22  
Shoot if done right a person can be killed by a simple D cell flash light battery. But it has to be done just right and takes needles and then hooking it up s as to cross the heart with the battery voltage which is just 1.5 volts but high enough amps to kill



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buickanddeere

02-14-2008 10:20:23




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 current flow Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to old, 02-14-2008 08:01:32  
Resistance is not measured in volts. Depending on the person & conditions. Some people have a low enough resistance to flow enough current to feel it at 12V. Other people have thick dry calluses on their hands and can't feel 120V. 48V is considered the maximum safe voltage to work on energized without specialized training, equipment and protection.



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old

02-14-2008 10:39:26




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 Re: current flow Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to buickanddeere, 02-14-2008 10:20:23  
As I said theory. As per my navy A school in electronics 32 volts was the voltage you average person would start to feel a zap



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ramtuff

02-14-2008 08:42:36




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to old, 02-14-2008 08:01:32  
I agree with Old on that.I worked for years as a mechanic in the coal mines.I got lots of hard shocks on 24 volt systems,on heavy equip.



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CWL

02-14-2008 08:07:21




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to old, 02-14-2008 08:01:32  
I've been tingled by 12 volts myself a few times. Seems to happen when its hot and I'm sweaty. Get your arm touching a good ground and then the positive post on the battery and sometimes you will get a tingle.



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old

02-14-2008 08:10:52




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to CWL, 02-14-2008 08:07:21  
Yep just you had the right condition at the time but if your dry and not sweaty you would not have got zapped



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Crem

02-14-2008 12:33:00




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to old, 02-14-2008 08:10:52  
Yeah, many years ago I got a good jolt from a 12 volt car battery that I had setting out in the driveway. I think that I may have been cleaning it and there was water around.



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Bob

02-14-2008 07:57:54




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bradyman, 02-14-2008 07:41:28  
It takes a certain amount of current flow through our skin for us to sense a "shock".

Our skin has sinificant resistance, and it takes VOLTAGE to get a current flowing through a resistance.

Some sources say a current as low as 6 Milliamps 6/1000 of an Amp) that you can't get away from can stop your heart.

I can tell you (from experience) if your skin is wet, a 24 Volt battery system WILL give you a shock, if you make good contact between the 24 Volts and ground. After ONE time, you won't wear a watch with a metal band while working around it, either!

You can make a "battery" of any voltage you want by connecting batteries in series.

You would NOT want to come into contact with 110 Volts DC. The resulting shock would be as bad (or WORSE) than contacting "wall socket power".

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Bendee

02-14-2008 18:14:02




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bob, 02-14-2008 07:57:54  
Remember in dim past being told Voltage is the EMF[electromotive force]
The equation was:
I being current{Amps} equals E electromotive force [volts] divided by R resistance [ohms]
Refer to Ohms law. and if you are inclined to test these theories I suggest you ur++ate on an electric fence. Ouch!!
In series [positive to positive] the voltage is increased but it does not increase the number of plates.
In parallel [positive to negative] it increases the number of plates but not the voltage.
Then series/parallel but will not go into that.
Example.12v battery with 100 amp/hr capacity each.

Series: 24 volts 100 amps {amps as per a single battery]
Parallel: 12 volts 200 amps.. {doubles the amperage]
These can be more LETHAL than your household supply which is governed by the 10/15 amp fuses.

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KEB1

02-15-2008 18:28:32




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bendee, 02-14-2008 18:14:02  
Bendee, want to correct a couple misconceptions. The amount of current a low voltage battery can provide has nothing to do with how much current will flow through your body. The current is limited by the resistance of your body, which limits how much current a given voltage can force to flow (ohms law applies). High voltage sources, such as a spark coil or taser, are a different animal. In these, there is enough voltage to force all the current that is available from the source through your body, but these kinds of high voltage sources can't supply very much current.

By the way, fuses and circuit breakers on the 120 volt wiring in your house are to protect against a short circuit starting a fire. Under the right circumstances, you can be dead long before the fuse or circuit breaker opens the circuit. If you get across a 120 volt line, the current necessary to cause a fatal shock is only a tiny fraction of the current required to trip a circuit breaker or blow a fuse. It is also entirely possible to have a fault condition that has enough resistance to keep from blowing the breaker but can pass plenty of current to cause a fatal shock.

That's why we now have ground fault interrupters, which basically monitor the current in the supply (hot) and return (neutral) wires, and open the circuit if there's any difference. If there's a difference its because part of the current is flowing through an unintended path, which can be a human. GFI's respond fast enough and at low enough current levels to prevent a dangerous shock.

Keith

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sammyd

02-14-2008 23:38:35




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to Bendee, 02-14-2008 18:14:02  

When I worked at the aluminum factory our anodizing line had tanks hooked up to 24V rectifiers that put out over 1000 amps.
The bus bars ran bare and you could touch both from the catwalk if you had the notion. Never had anyone shocked from it the 6 years I was there.



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Bendee

02-15-2008 03:04:00




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 Re: Electric(volt) question in reply to sammyd, 02-14-2008 23:38:35  
Can believe that.. nobody touched them.



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