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Figuring CFM capability

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Rob

08-09-2001 06:48:35




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I have a two piston compressor with a 3 hp motor(supposedly - probably more like 2hp, since the rating on the motor is 3 spl). I have it connected to a 28 gal tank, and need to know the cfm capability of this unit. There is no manufacturer information on it, so I was wondering if you can figure the cfm from how long it takes to pump up the tank to a certain psi. I have found a bead blast cabinet that requires 5cfm @ 80 psi, and I was wondering if I would be able to use it without killing my compressor. Thanks for any information,

Rob

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Scott

08-10-2001 12:38:07




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 Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Rob, 08-09-2001 06:48:35  
This is probably a stupid question, I know, but what is CFM? What does it stand for, and what does it mean? I am new to this compressor stuff. I recently acquired an old paint compressor with a 1/4hp motor, and an approximately 13 gallon tank that leaks. I am going to attempt to replace same tank with an old water tank, and I think I should know a little bit about this stuff before going to all the trouble. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Scott..

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John in MA

08-14-2001 19:48:18




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 Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Scott, 08-10-2001 12:38:07  
CFM=Cubic Feet per Minute. The amount of air the compressor can deliver.

I can't think of using a 1/4 HP air compressor for anything but light spraying. I wouldn't use it at all unless it has an oil-filled pump.

I built a 1/2HP compressor out of surplus parts and it takes ~15 minutes to compress a 20 gal tank to 110 PSI.

Do not use a water tank for compressed air. Doing so may lead to a mild case of death. It has happened. If you really are going to do it, water test it to 50% more than your safety valve will blow at. I've done that kind of thing with a grease gun and plumbing fittings.

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Neil

08-09-2001 07:40:23




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 Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Rob, 08-09-2001 06:48:35  
Here is a rough method.
For every 15 LB of pressure you have to put in an amount of air equal to the size of the container.
Example;
0 PSI 28 gal of air in a 28 gal tank
15 PSI 56 Gal of air, you added 28 Gal
30 PSI 84 Gal of air, you added anoth 28 Gal
45 PSI 112 Gal of air, you added anoth 28 Gal
60 PSI 140 Gal of air, you added anoth 28 Gal
and so on up to the cut off.
Since the efficiany (or effectivness) of the compressor varies with output pressure you should time it all the way up. You can then estimate the CFM at various pressures.
Again, this is a quick aproximation, as the aire pressure is affected by temperature and other factors.
Another estimate is Aprox 4 CFM per HP at 100 PSI.
But for this you need to know the real HP. Of course you can use the first method to find CFM and then work backwards to get HP.

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Rob

08-09-2001 11:00:47




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 Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Neil, 08-09-2001 07:40:23  
Thanks, Neil. That explains a lot, now I can figure it out.

Appreciate the explanation,

Rob



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Neil

08-09-2001 11:19:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Rob, 08-09-2001 11:00:47  
Also read Marks answer. These rules of thumb are not exact science.



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Mark Kw

08-09-2001 09:45:45




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 Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Neil, 08-09-2001 07:40:23  
Neil, not to be nit picky but on the older compressors, the rule of thumb cfm/hp is more like 2.5 (2.5cfm/hp) The electric motors are much less efficient too. While the compressor head my be in excellent condition like the old Westinghouse I worked on last week, the motors are just too old to be of value anymore.

On this unit, the motor ran fine but was only a 2 Hp and drawing upwards of 22 amps. While not being overworked or overloaded, the amp draw was normal. I replaced this motor with a new 3 Hp (220v / 1ph). Upped the speed on the compressor head 150 rpm to 650 (upper limit of head). New motor runs full load at 11.8 amps and cut the run times as follows: On at 110 psig off at 145 psig- was 8.9 minutes, now 4.5 minutes. Just about cut the amps and run time in half. Saves a lot on the electric bill.

BTW, this compressor has to be from the 1950's and ran with no air filter for God knows how many years. I was called in because it was no longer building air. Cleaned the paint, dirt, leaves and strings from the check vlaves and it worked fine. Shocking part of this was when I pulled the heads, the pistons and bore look as good as day one when it rolled out the plant door despite no filtering of intake air. If this had been my unit, it would have died 30 seconds after taking the filter off.

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Rob

08-09-2001 11:28:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Mark Kw, 08-09-2001 09:45:45  
Wow!

That's amazing that a new motor could have that much effect in reducing amp draw. Mine is a Doerr(sp?) and is supposed to draw 15 amps. I don't think it's too old (unsure of date - will have to check, but I'd guess mid 80's) but it looks like I might should do a amp draw check.

Thanks all - Lotsa good info here!!!!! !!!!

Rob



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Neil

08-09-2001 10:52:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Mark Kw, 08-09-2001 09:45:45  
Are the old motors that inefficiant or just have bad power factor?
22A at 220v is 4840 VA. Even if the motor made a full 2 HP, that leaves over 3000 watts to go to heat uinless it is the power factor.
Seems AC motor technology has been faily developped since the 60's. What do you consider an old motor?



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Noel

08-13-2001 07:58:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Neil, 08-09-2001 10:52:11  
The newer motors use bearings that have less drag, windings that are of improved design ( more densely packed windings and better able to transfer it's heat to the motor body allowing the motor to run coooler, and conductors with a greater greater surface area ( diamond shaped rather than round when viewed in cross-section). AC flows primarily through the outer skin of the conductor so a larger surface area in the individual conductor can carry a greater load while running cooler yet create a magnetic field in the windings of equal or greater strength compared to the older motors

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Mark Kw

08-09-2001 11:42:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Figuring CFM capability in reply to Neil, 08-09-2001 10:52:11  
I'd have to say pre 1980's are old but more so the pre 1970's stuff. Seems like there was major changes made in the overall designs around this time. From cast iron housings to laminated steel and capasitor to non-capsitor start.

I don't have any specifics about windings and power factors (something I never got into) but these things have played a major difference in the amperage draws and output Hp of the motors as well as the physical size.

The 50's motor I replaced weighed in around 120 pounds while the 2001 model higher Hp one weighs about 30-35 pounds. Big difference in just how much Hp is sucked up overcoming internal losses.

I do know that power factor circuitry in welding machines makes a huge difference in the output stability and also the input requirements. Machines that used to draw say 120 amps of 240 3 ph at full output now draw under 75 amps even though it's the same basic machine. Like I said, I don't have any insight into these changes but I do know they make a big difference overall.

One word of caution, you must not exceed the maximum related rpm of pumps or you may seriously damage it.

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