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Does anyone own

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Steve U.S. Allo

08-08-2001 06:39:54




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one of those woodburning outdoor boilers such as the Hardy? I would greatly appreciate any input in regard to likes/dislikes. How far away from the house is yours? Did you use anything to further insulate the underground tubing? How often do you stoke it up?
Thanks for any replies,
Steve




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W.W.

08-22-2001 05:55:55




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  

Steve your email does'nt work will you email me please.



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W.W.

08-12-2001 13:53:20




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  

I have my plumbing in the ground, now I'm looking for a wood burning boiler.does any body have any web pages for the different kinds including the hardy and taylor? any brand I should not buy?



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tlak

08-12-2001 10:15:35




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Does anybody know the type of line and cost per foot to put in a geothermal heat sink line. We have a sink hole that we are going to have to patch before we lose another dump truck full of top soil. It seems like an opertune time since the hole is about a foot across and 20 foot deep.



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Paul again

08-10-2001 14:52:26




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Steve - regarding the talk of building a shed for wood storage or to house the boiler - I carefully covered my wood with Wal-mart tarps the first winter until a friend convinced me I was wasting my time. Those furnaces will burn wet, snow covered wood with no trouble. Now I just thump the end of each chunk on the ground to dislodge the snow and pitch it in the firebox. It's bound to lower the efficiency of the system, but I can't tell it in the house. The Hardy folks recommend no shed over the furnace. Mine looks as good as the day I bought it. If it's raining and I don't want to get wet, I just wait a while for it to quit.

Regarding the installation of the wire in the pipe along with the hot tubing - I worried about that myself, but the dealer assured me that there was nothing to worry about. The water temperature is probably not much hotter than the inside of my attic on a hot day, and the wire in the attic stands it.

My insurance company was happy that I moved my heat source from the basement to the outside. Their only concern was that I locate it at least ten feet from the house. The rates dropped slightly.

I don't think I'd inject the foam into the 4" pipe in case I ever needed to pull the lines for some unfortunate reason. Besides, the insulation sleeves only cost $53 in my setup. The foam might be higher than that. My water temperature drops around ten degrees on the trip from the boiler to the house.

I added two, three foot sections of stack on our Hardy to get the smoke a little higher. One of my grandsons has a touch of asthma, and my wife worried that the smoke would bother him. I had trouble with creosote buildup in the top section (probably from burning wet, snow covered wood) and removed the top section. No more trouble. The higher you get from the firebox, the cooler the pipe temperature, and more buildup. I got the stainless steel stack sections from Hardy for about $20 each.

My total cost, three years ago, was $4200. I poured my own slab, dug the trench, and installed the 4 inch PVC. The dealer supplied all the remaining material and the installation.

Sorry again for rambling.

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glenshoe (again)

08-09-2001 06:18:56




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
After reading Dean's post, I thought I'd add some more info. My father cuts his own firewood from his own place, so the system pays for itself much more rapidly than if you have to purchase firewood, even if it IS cheap.



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Dean

08-09-2001 08:44:34




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 Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to glenshoe (again), 08-09-2001 06:18:56  
I agree. It depends on "cheap". Here you can get a permit for $10 and cut 2 full cords out of the National Forest which lots of folks do. Worse case is you pay $50 per loggers cord, delivered. You still get to cut it up and split it which I find great exercise. Of course, if you have your own wood lot, it's even cheaper!



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glenshoe

08-09-2001 06:15:01




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Steve, my father has owned two outdoor furnaces at two different houses in the last 8 years. He's completely sold on them. After extensive research he likes the Taylor units better than anything else in the price range. One of them was about 80 ft. from the house and the current one is about 50 ft. He says that both of them paid for themselves within two to three years. Now that I'm getting ready to retire and build a new house, I'm definitely thinking about installing one myself, although I'm seriously considering geothermal as well. Another consideration is the dual-fuel furnace (wood and either gas or oil). I thought it would be useful if I got sick or went away for an extended period, but haven't done enough research yet to see if it really works well or not.

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Dean

08-09-2001 06:10:30




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
I live in an area where the winters are long and cold. Firewood here is very cheap. So two years ago I looked at a wood fired outside boiler. When I ran the numbers, I was amazed to find out that it would take over 10 years to recover the cost of the unit and installation.

Our house is entirely electric, including EFA furnace and A/C. Our electric utility has a "thermal storage" program that requires that you buy a thermal storage heater, basically a fancy looking radiator that has 750 lbs. of ceramic brick inside with a heating element. They charge the unit at night during off-peak times. It has a fan and will heat the entire house for 2-3 days by itself but they never turn off the power to the EFA furnace for more than 6 out of 24 hours anyway. In fact, they rarely control the furnace at all. In return for this, we get our heat, A/C, and hot water electric for half-price. This has to be the deal of the century. If you live in the boonies, I'd look into it.

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Greaseman

08-08-2001 14:23:06




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Although I don't have one yet, I will be putting one in as soon as possible with my new double wide. All the people I've talked with and all the literature I've read indicate that you should have it about 25 feet away from any building's. I just looked in "Farming" magazine today and they have a lisying for: www.centralboiler.com Which looks like a small gardener's building with a chimney. I personally would put up a small enclosure for about 3 month's supply of firewood (about 15 face cord). My parent's have an inside add on wood burner which my father figured his propane bill was about $500 for last winter. Not bad for N.Y.. The only reson I want mine outdoors is because of all the dirt, smoke, rodents etc. are left outdoors and I'm then the only dirty, smelly thing inside the house. My parent's and I are part of the "New York Forest Owners Association (NYFOA)" which we get to do allot of "thining" and get paid for it. Although we do not sell wood now, we have in the past and unless it's a small time operation; I will probably not do any more.

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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-08-2001 15:32:25




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 Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Greaseman, 08-08-2001 14:23:06  
I'm going to take a look at that site. I also considered putting up a small enclosure for the stove and wood storage. I beleive the Hardy and the storage building will get a man close to the price geothermal. I'm trying to decide whether to go with geothermal or updating the existing heat pump and adding the wood boiler.



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Greg R.

08-09-2001 05:22:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 15:32:25  
I had the same problem of deciding between the outdoor wood burner and geothermal. We were using window airconditioners for summer and a fireplace insert for heat in winter (used the electric baseboard heat as backup). Last summer the decision was made to go geothermal when I hurt my back. Last November we had a WaterFurnace geothermal unit installed (Danco Enterprises in Springfield Ohio) including having air duct installed in the house. The WaterFurnace unit we have also has backup electric heating elements. Last winter here in southern Ohio, the electric elements never came on; the geothermal did all the work. The amount of complaining from my wife about the dirty wood and smoke in the house went to zero. Life has been much better from the domestic stand point and I didn't have to hurt my back anymore getting the firewood. A side benefit for the geothermal is the great airconditioning; she really appreciates that too.

Greg

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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-09-2001 06:04:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Greg R., 08-09-2001 05:22:03  
That central air is great isn't it. We did the same thing at one point. Went from window units to central. Sorta like the conversation about the auto darkening helmets. You know for sure you won't be going back.

I have a friend who used to be the head of Maintenance for Nestle beverage. I met him thru selling about 23 years ago. He's been kicked up stairs several times since then. Now he heads up their environmental program. He told me recently that the area I live in is one that studies show is prime territory for the installation of wind generators. I have considered opting for the geothermal and eventually going the route of the generator to offset some of the electrical costs. I love the idea of the power company having to buy the excess from me. (Wish I could jack the price up for them like they did for me.)

That's a Water Furnace brand we're looking at too. We met with one contractor yesterday who said the bid will probably come in around $12,000.00 for a 4 ton unit. Says the payback is about 5 years. Also says the unit gains in efficiency for the first 2 years as the ground settles in around the tubing. BTW, I hope your back is getting better.
Steve

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rhudson

08-08-2001 09:12:11




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Hi Steve,
After wanting one for years, i finally got one last summer. i had lots of fallen trees around the farm, so it seemed a natural. with the price of fuel last winter, it was timely. mine is about 200 feet from house, used quest type tube in a roll so there were no underground joints. i used the foam tube type insulation and put it all in a 6 inch cpvc pipe (that was a pain). a friend of mine dug a trench, lined it with plastic sheet, installed the tubing. he contracted an insulator to squirt foam in the trench. then the lapped the plastic sheet over the foam and back filled. he saids he has had no problem, but i wonder about ground water soaking the foam and loosing its insulation value.
you might want to run extra power lines for lights, etc. and also several signal cables to monitor temperature from inside the house although thats optional. i put a shed over mine that is large enough for about 3 months wood supply. used about a 16' stack to try to prevent the smoke from drifting down and around the house.
I wanted one of the Stainless steel Hardy types but could not afford it, and you don't find them used. mine was given to me from one of those solar/alternate fuel tax refund houses. it had seldom been used and in great shape but with a small firebox. i have to fill mine about 3 times a day. i still love it, and having a backup heating system gives me an extra comfort. the only people i have talked to that don't like them are people that are getting alittle too old for the woodcutting and stoking. but you are not at that point yet are you :>)

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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-08-2001 15:38:52




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 Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to rhudson, 08-08-2001 09:12:11  
That Hardy is pricey. The one I need would cost over $5000.00 by the time I got it installed. The idea you had of pouring the insulation in the trench is interesting. I thought about filling the PVC with that stuff. Don't know if I could get it to flow through the pipe with all the other tubing in there though. I'm like you. I've always got trees to take down for one reason or another. So far we've been standing around watching 'em burn and drinkin' beer. Seems like heating the house would be a better use for all that wood.

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rhudson

08-08-2001 15:46:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 15:38:52  
if you build the shed, you will still have a place to go and watch the wood burn and drink a few beers. i guess you could predrill foam injection holes in the pvc before putting the tubing in and then inject the foam in several points along the pipe. then maybe silicone caulk the holes.



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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-08-2001 16:04:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to rhudson, 08-08-2001 15:46:36  
I like both those ideas!



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bill hillbrant

08-08-2001 17:14:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 16:04:41  
steve--there is a company in philadelphia miss who builds one saw it at the ok state fair several years ago . looked like a good unit stainless throughout , didn't buy one . saw one later in ill - stopped and talked to the owner said he would almost kill for it . wished i had bought one - check msn yellow pages for the co name - reason for not buying-didn't think they knew anything about cold weather in miss. sorry so long get carried away sometimes-bill in ok

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Paul

08-08-2001 07:42:11




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Steve, we heat with a Hardy and really like it. It's 40 feet from the house. We tend it twice a day in the coldest weather and a couple times a week at most in summer. It burns about the same amount of firewood as the old hot air wood furnace that it replaced, plus it heats the domestic hot water. The tubing (four PEX lines) is inside a four inch PVC pipe that runs from the boiler to the house. The three hot lines are insulated in one closed cell foam sleeve similar to the material you find in hardware stores for home use. Placing three lines in one large sleeve conserves space inside the four inch pipe. If I were doing it over, I would use six inch PVC pipe for the "conduit". It was tough getting the four 3/4" lines, insulation, romex and thermostat wires inside the four inch pipe. The only trouble we have had is with the domestic hot water coil. It gets a buildup of mineral deposits from our well water and reduces the flow volume. When the spinner in the dishwasher slows down, Mama wants it fixed! I've read complaints from people who think they smoke too much, but it hasn't been a problem out here in the sticks. Actually, I don't think it smokes any more than the old furnace that we had in the basement. Another thing I like about it: since the fire is outside, it doesn't draw the super dry winter air into the house, and our humidifier doesn't run nearly as much as it used to. The nicest thing about it is not unloading the wood - I back a trailer load of firewood up to the furnace and feed it right off of the trailer. Sorry for rambling - e-mail or repost if you have more questions. By the way - I'm not connected to the Hardy company in any way, although people have accused me of being a salesman, ha.

Paul

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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-08-2001 15:44:57




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 Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Paul, 08-08-2001 07:42:11  
Thanks Paul,
I hadn't thought of the mineral build-up in the hot water coil. I also appreciate the advise regarding the 6" pipe for stuffing everything into. I know what you mean when poeple kid you about being able to sell those boilers. I've had things I felt that strongly about too. What's really hard for me is when I have something to actually sell that I feel that way about. Pretty hard to turn down the enthusiasm sometimes.

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TomH

08-08-2001 16:51:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 15:44:57  
Just a thought. I'm not sure I'd put the electric cable inside the insulated pipe. UF cable buried deep enough doesn't need conduit and you might have a heat buildup problem in the wire if its surrounded by foam. Would be something to investigate before construction.



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Mark Kw

08-08-2001 07:24:56




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Steve,

No first hand experience with one but a local guy had one at his wood fab shop. Worked well for heat but he did do a lot of modifications to it before using it. He had to move it away from the shop for insurance company reasons too. I'm not sure on all the mods he did but I know he added a larger pressure relief because it came close to blowing it's top once. I do know the piping he used was sch 80 and wrapped with 6" of fiberglass insulation then cased in stainless steel jacket material. This he installed overhead to tie into the existing system piping.

I'll give him your email address and let him talk directly to you about it.

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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-08-2001 16:02:42




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 Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Mark Kw, 08-08-2001 07:24:56  
I haven't talked to the insurance man yet. I wondered what they would have to say. I know they don't like the inside wood stoves much. I think somebody once told me that their particular insurer told them he couldn't insure them if they installed an inside unit. We where told by some friends recently that their insurance company would drop them for buying a German Shepard, a Chow, or a pit bull. If they could see what my wifes old Tom cat does they'd probably drop us. Size doesn't really matter there.

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Tyler(WA)

08-08-2001 07:16:01




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 Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 06:39:54  
Hi Steve,

I don't have one yet but have done a lot of looking into them and had a lot of response from first hand owners who love them.

One, in Michigan (cold place) has to stoke his once every three days during the winter months. I figure out here in the mild Northwest, I'd have to fire it up about once a week during the coldest time of the year.

Most applications I've seen, have the boiler real close to the house. I'm sure that's convenient for both short heat runs to the house and short walking to stoke up the boiler.

Hope it works out for you.

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Steve U.S. Alloys

08-08-2001 15:56:20




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 Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Tyler(WA), 08-08-2001 07:16:01  
Thanks for the reply Tyler. I spoke to Frank Moore at the Hardy manufacturing plant and he says you loose 2�F for every 5' of tubing length. They want you stay between 10' and 100' from the structure. Like Mr. Hudson, I also considered the stack extensions to get the smoke up out of my way. I can't locate the boiler where the prevailing winds would do that for me. I've got water where that spot is. Thanks again for your input. I appreciate the time you took to help me.

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Jim

08-22-2001 09:04:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Does anyone own in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 08-08-2001 15:56:20  
My father bought a taylor 7 years ago. He liked the fact that parts were readily available. The only part he has replaced was the electric motor that forces air through it when water is called for. He didn't realize he was supposed to lube the motor occasionally, but it lasted 6 years. He uses 24-7, 365 days a year as it also supplies his hot water. He installed the heat exchanger so he would not have to use radiators....except for the garage attached to the house. The water comes into the house and goes to the heat exchanger and hot water heater, then out to the radiator in the garage, then back to the boiler. He has nothing but good things to say.

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