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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Attaching fireplace blockoff plate

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Stan in Oly, WA

01-31-2008 08:28:28




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I'm installing a wood burning insert in my masonry fireplace. I'd like to put a blockoff plate at the top of the fireplace chamber, below the bottom of the chimney. The surfaces that the plate will be attached to, or rest against, are the back of the steel lintel and the firebrick of the back and sides of the chamber. This has to work the first time; once the 450 lb insert is in place, it's going to be next to impossible for me to make adjustments.

I have two areas of concern, attachment and noise. I expect the plate to distort during each heating and cooling cycle. My current plan is to install angle brackets to all four sides of the enclosure and set the plate on top of them. Should the plate be attached to the brackets? I'm afraid that if the plate is attached to the brackets, the movement from distortion will eventually loosen the anchors holding the brackets to the brick. If the plate rests on the brackets without being attached, I think it might make loud noises bumping against them as it distorts.

I can make the plate from 12, 16, or 20 gauge sheet metal, which I have on hand, or use lighter or heavier metal if I was persuaded that it would give better results.

All thoughts, observations, suggestions, and advice are welcome.

Thanks, Stan

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T_Bone

02-01-2008 17:00:04




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
Hi Stan,

It really doesn't matter what we want when it comes to fuel buring appliances as the mfg install instructions have to be followed to a "T" with "I's" dotted. This is too keep with-in the appliance UL listing, ie; about 99% fire codes.
What does the mfg install instructions say on penetrations? There should be instructions for fire rated penetrations and non-fire rated penetrations. Follow the mfg instructions.

To generaly answer your questions, SS does not expand like carbon steel does and in fact you never know how or where SS will expand too or how much it'll expand.
Carbon steel is pretty predictable upon expansion. Then your third expansion consideration is the block work that expands at another rate.

On the type of installation your talking about, the angles would have to have oversized anchor holes to allow for independent expansion from the block work.

Nothing should be tied to the hearth sill plate embedded into the block.

The cover plate would best be a floating install with plenty of end and side play room. As too plate thickness, the hotter the plate gets the thicker it should be or be cross braced. With out seeing your insert then it's hard to guess how much external heat loss it has. What's the mfg clearence spec to combustables? That should give you a indication of how much heat to expect. Anything under 2" clearence then there's not very much heat loss from the insert.

As to the plate to stack clearence, you best leave some room here or the SS might rub a hole into stack side wall. You are installing atleast double SS wall pipe, correct?
They make a fire proof rope that would make a great gap filler. Depending on brand depends on how I would install it. I would say it would be hard to go wrong using a metal band that is steel rivited to both connection points with the rope sandwiched between them. Just leave the rope loose in the gap area or not taunt.

Single wall stack would have a different installation giude lines and the above info would be wrong. Again refer to the mfg install instructions.

T_Bone

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NEBobcat

02-01-2008 10:23:46




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
chimfex..... atleast 2 of them on hand



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circus

02-01-2008 01:45:31




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
"boink?" Wack a few dents in the plate.



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NTP

01-31-2008 16:18:49




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
Stan, the new inserts burn the wood much more effeciently and will produces much less smoke than the old fireplace did. Use a 6 inch poly brush to clean your chimney twice a year and you should not have to worry about a chimney fire. As I mentioned above, if you use the white material to close off the bottom in your smoke chamber, you will not have to worry about the noise from the heating and cooling of the liner, as there will be none.

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NTP

01-31-2008 16:05:35




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
Just had two "Regency" inserts installed in a log home a week ago. They removed the damper and installed a 6 inch liner in the chimney and used some white fireproof material to close off the space around the liner at the bottom, and then filled the space around the liner from the top with vermiculite and sealed the top off. I have to disagree with the fellow who said inserts are not effecient. Ours work very well and puts out a lot of heat with the blower systems that came with them. They cut the trim pieces that surround the insert so that it fit just inside the fireplace opening and they look great.

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guido

01-31-2008 15:54:06




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
Hello Stan.
I would use the heaviest plate you have on hand and lay it on top of the brackets.
You can add some rigidity to it by rollimg grooves in the plate if you can. I got the water treatment when I had my chimney fire!
GUIDO.



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36 coupe

01-31-2008 15:04:27




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
Fireplace inserts are not much improvement over a fire place.Fireplaces are popular but not a good way to heat a room.Before iron could be cast into stoves the fireplace was all people had.They must have froze their pumpkins off.If the fireplace is on an outside wall the chimney will run very dirty on low fires that you will get from an insert or stove.Most of the old fireplaces were bricked up when stoves became available.A cold chimney acts like a condenser and will actually soak the vermiculite.

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Stan in Oly, WA

01-31-2008 12:59:28




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
In response to Red Dave's advice/warning, there's something I realize that I need to clarify. The installation of the fireplace insert will include the addition of a 6" stainless steel chimney liner which will be connected to the exhaust port of the appliance, and run seamlessly inside the masonry chimney to the top where it will connect to a chimney cap. This will make it a reasonably sealed system from the combustion chamber to the outlet at the chimney top. Under normal operating conditions no hot gases or combustion products should be in contact with any part of the original masonry system. Whether the stainless steel liner could withstand the temperatures generated by a raging chimney fire is a matter of concern, of course, but you can only do what you can do.

The reason I want to install a blockoff plate is so that I can fill the space between the chimney liner and the masonry with vermiculite to the lowest possible point. This will provide my house with added protection from a chimney fire, as well as holding the heat which radiates from the firebox at a level where the masonry that absorbs it can transfer it to the living space rather than to the attic or the outdoors above the roofline.

I have a plan for closing the blockoff plate snugly, not tightly, around the chimney liner, so the only advice I think I need is about how to deal with possible noise and attachment issues from the cyclical warping of the metal of the blockoff plate.

Stan

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Red Dave

01-31-2008 09:33:32




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 08:28:28  
Be sure to make that plate easy to remove. It will catch all the ash, soot and creasote that the insert stove puts up the chimney. The fire department will need to get it off to extinguish your chimney fire.



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Stan in Oly, WA

01-31-2008 13:12:02




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Red Dave, 01-31-2008 09:33:32  
Hi Dave,

Enlightened fire departments deal with chimney fires by blocking the top of the chimney with something non-combustible. Less enlightened departments run water down the chimney, thereby adding tens of thousands of dollars of unnecessary damage to the situation. But it would be a monumentally incompetent department that would pull the burning appliance out into the middle of the room so that they could get at the chimney from the bottom. Thanks for the dire warning, though.

Stan

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Red Dave

01-31-2008 16:26:39




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 01-31-2008 13:12:02  
Since we are all being "enlightened".

"blocking the top of the chimney with something non-combustible" only works when the fire in the chimney is small and there is not much buildup of combustible materials in the flue and the flue is intact and airtight.

Some chimney fires are so deeply embedded that there is no way to put it out without removing the burning material. They will need to get to the seat of the fire after the stainless steel liner burns through. To do that requires removing whatever heating appliance the "monumentally incompetent" homeowner put there.

I'm glad that you now say you are putting in the stainless liner, it will help to keep the soot and creosote under control, and it will help the flue draw better. We've had to deal with some really nasty cases where somebody just put the insert in without a liner.

Check your smoke detector. You never know when you may need it.

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Stan in Oly, WA

01-31-2008 17:16:52




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 Re: Attaching fireplace blockoff plate in reply to Red Dave, 01-31-2008 16:26:39  
Thanks Dave. There was no need for me to be a pi$$ant about it, so it sort of serves me right that I'm wrong, too. I appreciate the information. Above all else, I do want this installation to result in a safe situation.

All the best, Stan



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