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Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home

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MarlinM51

01-18-2008 08:28:31




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I've noticed that the light fixtures in my house (constructed in 1969) seem to have the wall switch interrupting the white (neutral) wire. On a typical ceiling box I have 4 wires. 2 coming in from the supply (when all are disconnected there's 120V across these 2). The incoming white wire is connected to another white wire going to the switch. The black wire coming from the switch and the black incoming (hot) wire are connected to the light fixture. Was this common at one time? When I re-install a light, should I be re-connecting the wires so the black incoming wire (hot) goes to the wall switch? Thanks.

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Slowpoke

01-19-2008 22:48:24




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
I think Bus Driver has the easiest explanation. The fixture should not have any 120v power to either of the terminals with the switch off.



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Gordon in IN

01-18-2008 16:43:01




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
When you stated: "The incoming white wire is connected to another white wire going to the switch." Did you mean to state: "The incoming white wire is connected to another white wire going to the light fixture". If so, It does make a large difference.

Hope this helps.



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MarlinM51

01-20-2008 01:35:27




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to Gordon in IN, 01-18-2008 16:43:01  
No, the incoming white wire is connected to an unmarked white wire that goes to the switch. This appears to be incorrect. I wonder if this house's switchs being miswired has anything to do with a flickering fluorescent light in my shop?
Marlin



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Charles (in GA)

01-18-2008 14:45:52




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
J R is correct. The code requires that the hot wire, arriving from the switch at the light/luminaire be the correct color and not a remarked wire.

It is OK for a remarked white wire to act as the ungrounded conductor (ie, the black wire) while carrying the current to the switch, but not from the switch back to the luminaire.

NEC 200.7(C)(2)

Charles



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tech4

01-18-2008 12:05:32




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
third party image

Sounds like whoever wired the light got some wiring directions from his cousin Joe that was an electrician at one time. Here is a simple picture of how it should be wired. The web site explains the wiring. Just remember to mark the white (hot) wire with tape or black paint.

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MarlinM51

01-18-2008 13:20:04




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to tech4, 01-18-2008 12:05:32  
If you reversed the white & black at the bottom of the diagram, you"d have a picture of what my light/switch setup was like. So all I have to do is wire mine to look like the diagram and it will be correct? Is there any hazard (other than the live black wire with the switch off) to leaving the others in the house alone until I have to change the fixture?



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Stan in Oly, WA

01-18-2008 14:13:57




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 13:20:04  
Hi MarlinM51,

If you wire it like the diagram it will be correct.

The other fixtures have waited 39 years to be rewired correctly. They ought to be all right for a few more.

All the best, Stan



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MarlinM51

01-18-2008 10:50:18




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
At the breaker box, all whites go to to the grounded buss and all blacks are connected to the breakers. There's only one light on the switch. My first experience with this wiring setup was when I had the switch shut off to the lights in the basement and I was replacing a fixture. While I had one bare arm laying over the copper drain that runs the length of the house, I discovered that the black wire was still live. I could follow that circuit all the way back to the breaker box, so I'm relatively certain that the person who wired the house when it was new simply added the switch loop to the white wire. All the splices look great. He twisted them evenly and added a wirenut. It looks like a good job except for the live black wire in the light mounting boxes. I don't know if he was nuts or if that was the practice at the time.

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Oliver Power

01-19-2008 05:11:20




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 10:50:18  
That"s how I wired the lights in my garage. It saved me wire. One wire comming from breaker box , to center of garage. Then split off from there to power lights and recepticles on separate switches , useing one wire for each switch. And yes , they still do that today. I have a almost new modular home. Went to replace bakelite box, with metal box , due to weight of ceiling fan. I took down the original light fixture. Looked in the box , and the red flag went up. Sure enough. The switches , as well as the recepticals ,were at the end of the circut. My place was built in 1999. Good thing I knew what was going on. Could have easily been jolted.

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J. R. Greathouse

01-18-2008 10:46:14




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
When wiring a light fixture to a sigle-pole switch on the wall, you will have black, white and either green or bare wire in the wire cable feediing power to the light. You will have a black, white, and green or bare wire coming from the switch. The saying goes, from the light fixture junction box using the wire to the switch, "the power goes down on the white (wire), back on the black (wire)". At the light fixture, the black wire of the source power is connected to the white wire (marked with black tape) of the wire going to the switch. The white wire of the incoming power wire is connected to one wire of the fixture. At the switch, the white wire (marked with black tape) is connected to the top (abitrary, could be connected to the bottom) of the switch of the switch. The black wire is connected to the bottom of the switch. Back at the light fixture, the black wire coming from the switch is connected to the other wire of the light fixture. This completes the circuit from the power source to the light fixture when the switch on the wall is turned up (on) and the lamp in the fixture will light. Wire nut all bare or green wires together in the light fixture junction box and connect them to the box and to the fixture if a wire is provided. The same with the grounds in the switchbox. Connect tail of ground wires to green screw of the wall switch. If you are using plastic boxes, just wire the grounds together.
Any questions, please send e-mail. *All done per NEC (National Electrical Code)

J. R. Greathouse, Master Electrician, retired

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J. R. Greathouse

01-18-2008 10:45:22




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
When wiring a light fixture to a sigle-pole switch on the wall, you will have black, white and either green or bare wire in the wire cable feediing power to the light. You will have a black, white, and green or bare wire coming from the switch. The saying goes, from the light fixture junction box using the wire to the switch, "the power goes down on the white (wire), back on the black (wire)". At the light fixture, the black wire of the source power is connected to the white wire (marked with black tape) of the wire going to the switch. The white wire of the incoming power wire is connected to one wire of the fixture. At the switch, the white wire (marked with black tape) is connected to the top (abitrary, could be connected to the bottom) of the switch of the switch. The black wire is connected to the bottom of the switch. Back at the light fixture, the black wire coming from the switch is connected to the other wire of the light fixture. This completes the circuit from the power source to the light fixture when the switch on the wall is turned up (on) and the lamp in the fixture will light. Wire nut all bare or green wires together in the light fixture junction box and connect them to the box and to the fixture if a wire is provided. The same with the grounds in the switchbox. Connect tail of ground wires to green screw of the wall switch. If you are using plastic boxes, just wire the grounds together.
Any questions, please send e-mail. *All done per NEC (National Electrical Code)

J. R. Greahouse, Master Electrician, retired

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J. R. Greathouse

01-18-2008 10:24:44




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
When wiring a light fixture to a sigle-pole switch on the wall, you will have black, white and either green or bare wire in the wire cable feediing power to the light. You will have a black, white, and green or bare wire coming from the switch. The saying goes, from the light fixture junction box using the wire to the switch, "down on the white (wire), back on the black (wire)". At the light fixture, the black wire of the source power is connected to the white wire of the wire going to the switch (this white wire is marked with black tape). The white wire of the incoming power wire is connected to one wire of the fixture. At the switch, the white wire is connected to the top (abitrary, could be connected to the bottom) of the switch of the switch (wire marked with black tape) The black wire is conncted to the bottom of the switch. Back at the light fixture, the black wire coming from the switch is connected to the other wire of the light fixture. This completes the circuit from the power source to the light fixture when the switch on the wall is turned up (on). Wire nut all bare or green wires together in the light fixture junction box and connect them to the box. The same with the grounds in the switchbox. If you are using plastic boxes, just wire the grounds together.
Any questions, please send e-mail. *All done per NEC (National Electrical Code)

J. R. Greahouse, Master Electrician, retired

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Stan in Oly, WA

01-18-2008 10:17:28




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
Hi MarlinM51,

The advice you've already received to get an electrician involved is the rational thing to do. That's the last thing I'd ever do, but I long ago stopped holding myself up as a model of good judgement.

Here's what I'd do if I were dealing with the situation you've described. (I wouldn't advise anybody else to do this, nor am I advising you to.) First I'd check the supply coming into the light to make sure that the white is, in fact, the neutral and the black the power. If there isn't a ground in the junction box, or if it isn't connected, I'd use an extension cord so that I'd have a known ground at the test location for my meter. Now I'll continue as if I've determined that black is the power.

If there's another light upstream from the one you're describing, and it's wired the same way (white wires connected and passing through, black wires to both sides of the light, then your lights are connected in series and are sharing the voltage. With more than two lights you'd almost certainly have noticed this; with only two, you probably would, but maybe not. It isn't possible to run two or more lights in parallel with the wire arangement you've described when the lights are between the source and the switch (in relation to the circuit, not by location.) This would require three conductors, not including ground---12/3, 14/3, etc.

The correct wiring for the situation you've described, assuming a single light fixture, involves a switch loop. In the fixture junction box, one wire from the light is connected to the incoming white neutral wire. The other wire from the light is connected to black wire coming back from the switch. The incoming black (power) wire is connected to the outgoing white wire. Both ends of this white wire, in the fixture box and in the switch box, are recoded black using black paint, fingernail polish, magic marker, or any permanent black marking to indicate that they are being used to carry the current.

All the best, Stan

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Bus Driver

01-18-2008 10:15:48




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
The wiring as you describe it poses no extra danger to the PREMISES. But it poses an extra danger to PEOPLE. The NEC specifications result in no power on any of the conductors actually connected to the fixture if the switch is off. Your hookup results in power being on at least one of those conductors at ALL times. Redoing it to comply with code should not be difficult, but will take some time. Get a qualified person to do it.

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Drum Hill Rehabber

01-18-2008 09:47:07




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
Code requires any white/neutral conductor used as a hot load line be marked with black tape and you will find this in receptacles where one cable is brought directly to load or light and splice is made at load and not switch but the white will be only on one side of switch. In a 4-way application you will find white used as a traveler and marked with a black tape and it will show on both terminals of one side of switch. I would certainly have a licensed electrician take a look at it because unmarked white wire used as load is dangerous and not code.

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onefarmer

01-18-2008 09:32:12




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
Look at the fuse/breaker box and see which is wired to the fuses/breakers. It should be the black wire, but I wonder if they wired the whole thing backwards. Maybe they were thinking like a car and using black as ground and white as hot.



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deano

01-18-2008 09:23:05




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
It's basacwards



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John T

01-18-2008 09:18:44




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  

You should NEVER break or switch the White Neutral (grounded conductor) its the Black HOT Line/Phase conductor that should be switched On/Off..... .....

The standard is White Neutral (grounded conductor)..... ... Black Hot/Phase..... ....Green/Bare is the Equipment Grounding Conductor.

The Neutrals (grounded condctor) can, of course, be spliced if done correct, but I would NOT daisy chain receptacles such as using the two tabs on a duplex receptacle to effectively splice the incoming and outgoing Neutrals.

If you perhaps have two SPDT (3 way) switches serving a single common light fixture, the wire colors may have you confused?????

Best get a licensed electrician to give you an inspection and an estimate.

John T Long retired electrical engineer so a lil rusty on the NEC n maybe in 69 it was different????? ????? ??

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dr.sportster

01-20-2008 06:25:30




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to John T, 01-18-2008 09:18:44  
Actually you do switch/break the neutral when it goes out to gas pumps.Its hard to describe the NEC to people not used to it.



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John T

01-20-2008 08:26:31




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to dr.sportster, 01-20-2008 06:25:30  
That doesnt surprise me at all. When I was an active designer we did some Explosion Proof Hazardous Location design and I recall that and gas pumps n swimming pools etc all have specific rules..... . I agree, the NEC is hard to understand even among engineers and electricians, let alone lay persons

John T



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dr.sportster

01-21-2008 12:14:16




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to John T, 01-20-2008 08:26:31  
An instructor/electrical inspector once told me he has to read each code article about six times.I thought gee what an idiot.Then I realized he wasnt far off.



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steve from mo - dangit!

01-18-2008 09:17:18




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 Re: Light Switch Wiring in 1969 Home in reply to MarlinM51, 01-18-2008 08:28:31  
I'd defer to a competent electrician, but I believe you should probably leave this alone since the whole house is wired that way. It's important to remember that 110/220 volt AC wiring does not work the same way that 6/12 DC wiring does. The concept of white as neutral isn't the same as a one-wire system where the ground completes the circuit. With AC the "neutral" completes the circuit.



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