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electrical question

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mwkellner

01-14-2008 11:00:36




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My wife was watching a DIY type show and thought she heard them say that an appliance (coffee maker, toaster, pencil sharpener, etc.) plugged in but NOT in use still uses 40% of the electricity that it would use if it were in service. This sounds wrong to me, but I am definatly not an expert on electricity. I am tired of everything being unplugged around the house. Please tell me if this has any truth to it or if she heard it wrong. Thank you very much for your responses. -- Martin

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Morty-Alberta

01-17-2008 09:02:00




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
this site has a handy calculator thing

Link



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Ted in NE OH

01-14-2008 21:36:28




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
My 27 in color TV uses 15 watts when turned off. I used a kill a Watt meter. Must be the electronics that recognizes the remote turn on command is still working.



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dave guest

01-14-2008 20:32:18




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Some TVs in the 70's, instant on variety, used a diode across the off=on switch. This would consume a fair amount of power, since entire set would be getting half wave DC.



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buickanddeere

01-14-2008 17:27:55




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Urban legend regarding those appliances. Cell and cordless phone chargers, fax machines, computers, home entertainment equipment etc. Remember in the winter it isn't wasted power. It's heating your house. Summer AC season yes it's a waste. So for 12 months a year on most items and 6-8 months of the year. Rosie and Oprah are as full of baloney as usual.



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msb

01-14-2008 17:24:48




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Couldn't an amp probe be clamped over the chord and the amp draw be measured?



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MarkB_MI

01-14-2008 18:33:50




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 Re: electrical question in reply to msb, 01-14-2008 17:24:48  
msb,

Just because an appliance is drawing current doesn't mean it's using power. You need to know the phase angle between current and voltage to calculate energy use. The "Kill-a-Watt" meters are cheap and supposedly calculate actual power. I have one, although I've only tried it on my refrigerators. I'll give it a try on some smaller stuff.



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Joe(TX)

01-17-2008 07:38:02




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 Re: electrical question in reply to MarkB_MI, 01-14-2008 18:33:50  
Mark
You need to explain that statment(Just because an appliance is drawing current doesn't mean it's using power)
The last I looked, power was equal to voltage X currant. So by definitition if it draws current it is using power.



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RayP(MI)

01-14-2008 17:51:29




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 Re: electrical question in reply to msb, 01-14-2008 17:24:48  
Clamp on ampmeters are selling for less than $10 plus shipping on ebay. Just got one! Clamp ons do have one frustrating trait, however, they need to clamp on a single conductor. So you need a short extension cord that you can plug into the wall, and then plug appliance into it. Wires in your extension need to be separate so you can clamp over one conductor at a time. While you are at it, check the ground wire for leakage current. Found a commercial switching powersupply with a hot case - am going to measure leakage with an ammeter soon's I can get the adapter cord made up! Leakage is wasted electricity!

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[email protected]

01-14-2008 17:46:32




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 Re: electrical question in reply to msb, 01-14-2008 17:24:48  
You must clamp onto one side of the AC line. Most of your power cords have both legs molded into one cable to the appliance. You will need to seperate the cord to clamp.



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[email protected]

01-14-2008 17:21:52




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
I'd say the 40% figure is a bit high. But I will say this, the wife picked up a new 4 slot toaster from Wally-works-sometimes and it works as designed. But, when its in the "standby" mode, it hums slightly. It stops if the cord is pulled. So obviously this thing is drawing something just sitting. I have not put a meter to it, but the 10% figure may be close in this case. My electric bill isn't too bad at all, so I will say that 40% is quite far off from what I have running.

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MarkB_MI

01-14-2008 15:37:28




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Anything that uses an unswitched transformer is going to draw some power. So a lot of electronic devices that use power converters which plug directly into the wall are quite inefficient. When the device is not in use, power is converted into heat: If the power convertor is warm when the device isn't running, then it's wasting energy. Idle power converters also contribute to lagging power factor, which causes parasitic losses in the wiring of your house and power transmission lines.

Now most of these devices draw so little power that you'd never notice the difference on your utility bill if you unplugged them. But if you add all of them up across the country there's a significant waste of energy.

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TimV

01-14-2008 15:14:05




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
mwkellner: While I tend to take any such figures with a grain of salt, it is certainly possible to eliminate some electrical loading by being selective about which appliances you unplug. The link below from builditsolar.com gives some analysis on this topic and a list of some particularly bad offenders. As a side note, DO NOT take out the light bulbs as Dick Lemmon suggested--this will lead to electricity dripping from the open sockets, which is very wasteful :-)

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soundguy

01-14-2008 13:23:12




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Simple electric items with a on/off switch like a palin can opener.. etc.. are open circuit when not in use.

Items with memory or clocks and instant on.. do use some small amount of power.

transforemer'd products also consume some power in the transformer primary when not in use, if it is plugged in.. etc.

soundguy



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Dick Lemmon

01-14-2008 13:10:41




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Tell her the same goes for light bulbs. She needs to take the bulbs out when not in use to save costly energy. Off is off and on is on unless it does as big fred said.

Must be one of Rosie's ideas.



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big fred

01-14-2008 12:29:01




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
I suspect that 40%, which seems way too high to me, is intended as a daily measurement. A toaster will use 1200 Watts when it's in use, but it's in use for only a couple minutes a day, while it would be consuming "standby" power (must be a fancy toaster with a clock or something) all day long. So it would use 40 Watt-hours doing the day's toasting, but maybe use 16 Watt-hours (40% of 40) running the clock.

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big fred

01-14-2008 12:28:54




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
I suspect that 40%, which seems way too high to me, is intended as a daily measurement. A toaster will use 1200 Watts when it's in use, but it's in use for only a couple minutes a day, while it would be consuming "standby" power (must be a fancy toaster with a clock or something) all day long. So it would use 40 Watt-hours doing the day's toasting, but maybe use 16 Watt-hours (40% of 40) running the clock.

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Gun guru

01-14-2008 12:06:25




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
I believe that the 40% statistic is BS. How can a toaster possibly use 40% of the electic when not used, simple it doesnt. They are lying. My wife believes it though, no sense in arguing with queeny.



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Bob

01-14-2008 13:26:18




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 Re: electrical question in reply to Gun guru, 01-14-2008 12:06:25  
Big Fred "nailed" it.

When you compare the CONSTANT 24/7 tiny parasitic losses of the power transformers/power supplies and things like timers and clocks vs. the few minutes a day of actual use the appliance actually sees, the small parasitic losses become a significant part of the TOTAL power used over time.

Nowadays, MAY appliances and gadgets DO NOT have a REAL "on-off switch".

When you punch the power button, some of the lights on the front panel shut off, but the power supply and logic stuff keep quietly sucking power while the gadget is "OFF".

The "cabinets" of LOTS of gadgets are warmer than ambient, 24/7, showing power is being used.

Try "sniffing around" with a non-contact thermometer... the gadgets sucking power all the time will be above ambinet room temperature.

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Kestrel in CT

01-14-2008 11:56:59




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
I asked a similar question last week. Based on advice received, I ordered a "Kill-a-Watt "usage monitor from Northern Tool ($49.99) to measure all my plug-ins. Also plan to buy and install an "Energy Detective" device this spring to measure total household use.

I think the 40% figure came from Dept.of Energy's study of US household electronic consumption....that 40% of all domestic electronic device consumption, mainly wall wart transformers, is when the appliances are "sleeping"or in non-active mode.

I know my home office with computers, phones,etc. is always 2-3 degrees hotter than rest of the house, even with computers logged off.

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greygoat

01-14-2008 11:11:00




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
The "instant on" ones, like some TVs and VCRs
and items with clocks and timers, and little lights, are always useing "some" electricity.
You can get a plug in wattmeter that plugs
into the outlet, and the appliance plugs into it, and it tells you how much is being used.
Our Library has one, and you can chrck it out
for 3 days.



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John T

01-14-2008 11:10:34




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Short general answer NOT TRUE. Especially if it has a true On/Off switch that actually disconnects the power, then it uses NO power. Some small elec applicanes n some TV's still supply a small amount of power to keep in the stand by or warmed up mode so they fire up quicker when turned on buttttt t generaly speaking most garden variety home appliances DO NOT use anywhwere near the 40% you mentioned when OFF..... ..... .

John T

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John T

01-14-2008 11:10:03




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 Re: electrical question in reply to mwkellner, 01-14-2008 11:00:36  
Short general answer NOT TRUE. Especially if it has a true On/Off switch that actually disconnects the power, then it uses NO power. Some small elec applicanes n some TV's still supply a small amount of power to keep in the stand by or warmed up mode so they fire up quicker when turned on buttttt t generaly speaking most garden variety home appliances DO NOT use anywhwere near the 40% you mentioned when OFF..... ..... .

John T

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