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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Another 'beam' load question

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Chuck UR

12-31-2007 05:20:28




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I would like to add a 24' x 24' addition to my shop.

I'd like to build the framework with 6" x 6" x 3/16"
steel tubing that I have.

The two outer walls and the end wall will be supported but I'd like the center beam to be 'freespan'.

The 3 beams on 12' centers will be tied together with 2" x 6" wood joists on 2' centers and the flat roof will be 5V 'tin'.

Will this work ?
or is the center beam gonna fall on my head ???

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El Toro

01-01-2008 08:26:04




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
Here in MD you would need to get a building permit
to construct another building or add to an existing building. You would probably have to include a detail drawing too. I wouldn't build any flat roof since they're just asking for trouble with leaks. You need to talk to an architect for guidance. They can make you remove and building or addition without a permit here in MD. They have building inspectors too that will
be inspecting to see if the codes are followed.
Hal

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T_Bone

12-31-2007 13:27:11




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
Hi Chuck,

You didn't give enough info for a design calculation.

If your interested there's many good design calculators on the intenet that fully explain what consideration is needed for quality designs for concrete, steel and wood beams.

In general, beam depth is more important than width.

T_Bone



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Chuck UR

12-31-2007 13:19:11




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
This addition will be a shed roof coming 24' off the side of the main building.
Probably about 3 on 12 pitch covered with 5V 'tin'.
Does that make better sense ?
I plan to run 3, 24', 6"x6"x3/16" square tube beams off the sidewall of my existing shop.
The outside and end wall beams of the extension will be supported 6"x6" columns on 12' centers.
I'm wondering if the center beam will need a support in the middle.

What I may do is run a temporary 'jack' in the middle of the center beam.
Complete the addition and lower the jack.
If it sags I'll have to add a permanent post but I'd really like to have a 24'x 24' open bay !

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David - OR

01-01-2008 07:18:46




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 13:19:11  
The center beam is not strong enough to span 24 feet.

The Steel Tube Institute (see link below) gives the moment of inertia for a 6x6x3/16 section at 22.3 in**4

The section modulus is given as 7.42 in**3

Your center beam supports a 12 foot tributary width of roof. Even in very mild climates it is typical to design roofs to a minimum of 25 pounds per square foot live + dead load (to handle wind loads if nothing else -- and you should be doubly careful of wind loads if you plan to leave any side of this addition open -- 3 sided buildings are notoriously prone to wind failures).

So 25 psf loading and 12 foot tributary gives us a distributed load of 25*12 or 300 pounds per foot on the center beam. (25 pounds per inch). The beam is to free span 24 feet, or 288 inches.

The formula for center deflection of a simply supported beam with a distributed load w is

5*w*(l**4) / 384*E*I

E (modulus of elasticity) is typically 2900000 for steel.

Plugging in the numbers

5*25*(288**4) / 384 * 2900000 * 22.3

The mid-point deflection under this loading is 3.5 inches. This considerably exceeds even a very liberal guideline of (span/180) for a roof beam.

The bending moment under this loading is w * l**2/8 or 259200 inch pounds

The stress at the midpoint is M/S or

259200 / 7.42 or about 35000 psi

It is unclear what kind of steel you have; it seems imprudent to assume better than A36 steel with a tensile strength of 36000 psi.

Allowable bending stress in A36 steel is 0.66 * 36000 or 24000 psi.

You would be overloading the beam by 50 percent. In fact, you are basically at the point of outright failure.

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Chuck UR

01-01-2008 13:17:09




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to David - OR, 01-01-2008 07:18:46  
David -
Thanks for the explanation.
Even though I don't understand the engineering I do understand that there's no way I can build this addition without at least one support post.



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David - OR

01-02-2008 04:55:44




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 01-01-2008 13:17:09  
I'm reluctant to offer this thought, as there is still not enough information available to properly design this (snow and wind load, for example). It's easier and safer to say (as I did above) that "This won't work". And I'm not a licensed structural engineer.

But consider putting using one more 6x6x24' beam instead of a center post. Put the two beams side-by-side in the center, and support the pair with a post along the edge of the lean-to.

This halves the loading on the center roof beam and the design might be OK in a mild climate.

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Billy NY

12-31-2007 10:53:35




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
This really qualifies to have an engineer check, not sure what the codes are like in your area, but the basic premise of constructing any span, for any purpose is to know what loads it will support. See if you can identify the shape of those 6" x 6" tubes, A.I.S.C. hand book may help here, have an engineer look it up, then provide the engineer with all details of the proposed construction, to see what you are dealing with. I can't comment on the use of tube shapes for creating spans, I would be of the opinion that other shapes would be stronger, and it might be possible that you could use them, maybe you already have them on hand, but you would be smart to know what you are dealing with on the proposed span and loads to be imposed on same. It's one of those things I would not recommend guessing at, by arbitrarily using said materials and not having any idea of the maximum allowable spans, loading and deflection, bracing and connection details etc. Don't mean to lecture, it's ust kind of a life/safety thing you may really want to have checked by a licensed professional engineer, preferrably of the civil/structural background.

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135 Fan

12-31-2007 10:28:07




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
Don't you have to have it approved before you can start building? When I looked into building a shop, most counties want enginered drawings before they will approve it. If it failed and someone got hurt, you could liable. Dave



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paul

12-31-2007 09:54:08




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
Sounds like an ugly twisted mess here in Minnesota. You must be in the south, different deal there I'm sure.

I beam form is much stronger for this than square tube.

Flat roof is just miserable from the start.

A few companies push to 9 foot span, the buildings that stand have 6-8 foot span.

That is 'here'. ;)

--->Paul



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wyod

12-31-2007 07:57:13




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to Chuck UR, 12-31-2007 05:20:28  
Hey Chuck,
Ya don't mention what you're using for "beams" to carry the roof load... is it the square tubing??? If so, I'd guess you're in for some excitement at some point. I'm no engineer, so I had an engineer friend do some calcs for me to determine the size beam I'd need to build an overhead crane in my shop... span is about 22'... He figured I'd need a 10" I-beam (the heaviest #/ft... can't remember the specs just now) to carry 2,500# load (with a safety factor figured in). According to him, you get the best "bang for the buck" by considering the depth of the beam... ie: a 10" I-beam will carry a load better than a 5" square tube (and probably costs less). Add to this, the fact that flat rooves aren't very efficient at transferring load... especially if snow or wind is a consideration... and I'd think you'll run into trouble. Of course, the thing to do is to consult an engineer in your local area who is familiar with weather conditions and building code. HTH, D

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wyod

12-31-2007 08:02:24




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 Re: Another 'beam' load question in reply to wyod, 12-31-2007 07:57:13  
after re-reading your post, I also see you're planning to use purlins that are 12' in length... had another engineer do some calcs for a pole building I'm working on... he told me I should keep my purlins to 8' in length. If you space your posts on 8' centers (instead of 12') and get some additional steel to build roof trusses, you'll probably be OK. I built a different building a while back with trusses made from pipe... worked out fine. HTH, D

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