'88 Chevy 3500 Air Conditioning

My '88 Chevy, which I hope to get working on soon, has been updated to use the modern/legal coolant, but I understand it leaks slowly and the previous owner simply had it recharged once or twice a year.

Is there a simple way of finding/stopping A/C gas leaks? What are the most common areas to form leaks? If it is a matter of o-rings, how many o-rings would my system have, and would it be hard to simply go through and replace all of them?

Thank you, Glenn F.

I don't recall the changeover year, but they probably are different. 1988 used R12 and had solid-rubber hoses. If the 95 came with the newer 134A, it has the nylon coated barrier-hoses I mentioned. I don't think the old rubber hose is even manufactured anymore, so any new hose that gets made has the barrier hose rated for all the refrigerants. One catch is the inside diamater is a little smaller than the old hole and uses different fittings.

The following comes right from the horse's mouth - i.e. the EPA:

"EPA has finalized a rulemaking that does not include a restriction on the sale of HFC refrigerant R-134a. EPA has limited the sales restriction to refrigerants that contribute to depletion of the stratospheric ozone layer, including HFC blends containing an ozone-depleting substance (e.g., FRIGC FR-12, Free Zone, Hot Shot or R-414B, GHG-X4 or R-414A, Freeze 12). While EPA does not restrict the sale of pure HFC substitutes, it REMAINS ILLEGAL to knowingly vent HFC substitutes during the maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment (i.e., appliances). HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance (such as R-410A or R-134a) are not covered under the refrigerant sales restrictions."

When I was studying for my universal cert. at the Coast Guard training center, it was presented in laymen terms as that purchase of HFC's (R-134a) is restricted to licensed technicians, but shops may send runners and clercs to the store to get it. This applies to both 608 and 609(MVAC). When the question appeared on the EPA exam, it asked which date that law became effective. 15 Nov. 1995 was what I put on common area.

• sec. 609

If you were taught otherwise, you were taught wrong. I have the entire history of all the EPA regs here in front of me - direct from the source.

I'm going to post more info at the Tractor Talk forum instead of posting all over the place.

"Note, that while certification is required in order to service motor vehicle air-conditioners, certification is not required to purchase R-134a."

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In regard to 134A, there has never been a law to restrict the sale of it. So, it has nothing to do with "new" laws allowing it.

In regard to the who can, who cannot? I didn't make any claims about it either way. However, what you claim in not necessarily the "end of the story" from the EPA.

From what I can tell - the word "technician" does not legally apply to someone servicing an AC system that uses 134A.

Their regs state: Technicians who repair or service CFC-12 and HFC-134a motor vehicle air conditioners must be trained and certified by an EPA approved organization.

Note their use of the word "technician." It says nothing about what exactly IS a technician. If you are a plumber, or an accountant, you are NOT techincally a technician - so can you then legally work on your own AC system?

Answer is - even people at the EPA don't seem to be sure. They have changed the official definition of the word "techinician" at least three times in the refrigerant documents.

EPA wrote: " The March 12, 2004 final rule was not intended to either mandate section 608 technician certification for those maintaining, repairing, or servicing appliances using substitutes that do not
consist of a class I or class II ODS or to restrict the sale of substitutes that do not contribute to the depletion of the stratospheric ozone layer, such as pure HFC and PFC substitutes."

Note that the EPA is still arguing about 134A and is most cases, shows it as NOT a Class I or Class II ODS refrigerant. At to these quotes:

"Standard 700-1993 that do not consist in part or whole of a listed class I or class II ozone-depleting chemicals will not be included in the new appendix, namely R-23; R-32; R-125; R-134a; and R-143a."

Also from the same document it names what is: " . . . an ODS, namely R-11; R-12; R-13; R-22; R-113; R-114; R-123; R-124; R-401A and B; R-402A and B; R-405A; R-406A; R-408A; R-409A; R-411A and B; R-412A; R-500; R-502; R-503; and R-509 "

Now - the EPA does not include 134A as a Class I or Class II ODS refrigerant. And - look at the definition (one of many) for what a technician is:

"Technician means any person who performs maintenance, service, or repair that could be
reasonably expected to release class I or class II refrigerants from appliances, except for
MVACs, into the atmosphere."

So, the upshop appears to be - if you are working on an AC system that uses 134A, your are NOT classified as a technician, and therefore don't need any sort of licensing . . . maybe.

EPA also wrote - in a attempt to clear up some confusion :

"March 12, 2004 final rule stated that the amended definition of technician could be
misinterpreted to mean that technicians servicing and maintaining MVACs must also have
section 608 technician certification. "

What exactly is the law? It appears to me, that the way it is written - it is unenforceable. I see nothing in the EPA regs that clearly states it is illegal for a person to work on his/her own AC system with 134A.

If it is indeed against the law to work on your AC system with 134A, yet it IS legal to buy the stuff - that is pretty strange. At the moment, I can't think of anything legally for sale in the U.S. that is prohibited to use by law. Can you?

Cigarettes are about as close as I can think of - but you CAN still smoke them in a few places.

Guns? Generally speaking, if you qualify to buy them, you qualify to shoot them.

Alcohol - if you can buy it, you can drink it (in the right places).

A car or truck? You can buy one without having a driver's license, and you can drive it off road without a license.

From what I've read, many people that work for the EPA aren't sure.

Somebody help me here, because I can't come with anything.

I'd like to see some case law on even one situation, anywhere in the U.S., that someone has been found guilty of it. If I see it, I will at least assume that some judge believes it, and if it happpen more times, it will become case-law.

You say your truck is a 1988. If it still has the original hoses, they will not hold 134A properly and will always slow-leak. The molecular structure of Freon is larger than 134A. Because of all this, just about all AC hose companies changed over to what they call "barrier hose." The newer hose has a hard plastic internal liner to hold in the 134A.

Chronic slow leakers usually need all the rubber hoses updated - with a few odd-ball exceptions.

GMs usually had a bad habit of seeping out of the compressor shaft seal.

Allan