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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles

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Davis In SC

12-26-2007 20:29:48




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We are closing and selling out our machine shop... Before it is over, I guess I will be an enemy of everyone I ever knew.. Some folks that looked at machines and said our price was too high, are all upset, once that machine sells, grumbling that we should have called them back before we sold the the machine.. Same price, and machines were offered to them months ago, but I am the bad guy for some reason.. We are taking a bad enough beating, selling out in today's market.. I have a lot of folks that are kind enough to come haul off any good stuff left over. Sure is kind of them to offer...

I never realized how many buzzards are flying overhead..

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Davis In SC

12-27-2007 21:20:07




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Thanks for all of the replies.. Most of the machines are higher end, almost like new.. I just sold one 1994 lathe for 19,000, paid 36,000 for it new, Seller got a good deal, I got a fair price.. Same with all the other items, I am not a robber, but I will not be robbed.. Sad part is, several longtime friends are real upset, that they did not get a few little items that they wanted.. Moral of the story, keep friendships & business separate..

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135 Fan

12-28-2007 10:46:53




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-27-2007 21:20:07  
Amen to that! I know guys like that but wait till you're interested in something they are selling. They'll want more than what it's worth. I had a good friend buy a couple of almost brand new welding machines from me because of a bad deal I was in. I got slightly less than what I wanted but only because if he would have bought new machines, he would have had a new warrantee. It got me out of a bind and I got a good price for them. It would have been nice if I could have kept them but stuff happens. Dave

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TomTex

12-27-2007 19:23:35




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Davis, dont let the penny pinchers get any of it. Sell it at auction, attend yourself anf PO anything that brings less than you know its worth. I would cut it down and sell it for scrap before I let someone "steal" it for nothing. I sold a tractor one time back in the 60s to a guy and offered him a nice repair manual for it for a few dollars. He tried to steal it for $5. I told him what I would rather do with it and I did; tore it up and put it in the trash. Tom

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JT

12-27-2007 18:00:50




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Davis,
You will find out that your "friends" think you owe them something. Sell what people will pay your price for. Call an auctioneer that has consignment auction, see what he would do for you. jim



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M. Anderson

12-27-2007 14:55:06




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Mark, It's clear you have never bought a new mill or lathe not the jap junk but a new brigeport or a clausing colchester lathe. What he's asking seem to be fair market value here. Maybe you'd be more happy with harbour freight junk and after you buy it it will still only be worth scrap value. Try getting parts for a 30 year old rung fu drill press .Why do you think the bridgeport was copied by so many companys ? Would you copy a Geo metro if you wanted a Cadillac ?I don't see a big following for these cheap made machines. Good luck in you quest for quality machines for pennies on the dollar M. Anderson

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mark

12-27-2007 17:59:22




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to M. Anderson, 12-27-2007 14:55:06  
Mr. Anderson,

I never once said anything about buying junk....where did you get that from? Had you read my response and used a little logic, you would have sensed what the message I attempted to convey. But, in your haste to tell me what an a$$ I am, you missed the point.

I don't know what Mr. Davis is asking for his machines, I never inquired, nor did he tell me. Therefore what he asking for his property is a moot point.

What I said was....how can anybody steal something, if they pay...or offer to pay for something. They may offer less than the seller hopes to get, but that is not stealing.

Furthermore, I stated that old machine tools are no longer able to command top dollar since the advent of of modern CNC machinery...and that, is a fact. Black and white televisions likewise fell from grace, once color sets arrived on the scene. Yes, they still produce an image and sound....in other words, they work. But, compared to a 54 inch flat screen...they are worthless.....unless you are an occasional viewer.

No, I have never bought a new Bridgeport..... how many customers are lined up to buy new Bridgeports now that CNC milling centers are on the market? One percent of the machine market maybe? Likewise with the new manual lathe market. For simple repair jobs, and old manual still has it's place...but any shop doing production work wouldn't waste electricity on a manual lathe..let alone wages for a man to operate it. A Mazak will make a hundred completed products in the time it takes a man to set up a manual lathe/mill.

So, as unfortunate as it is for the owners of old style machinery, the value holding ability of their investments has eroded swiftly with the advent of computer controlled tools.

Sixty years ago, the nations railroads were scrapping essentially new steam locomotives that they paid small fortunes for. But, the diesel eclipsed them and suddenly..they couldn't give the steamers away...so they sold for pennies on the dollar to the junk man. That's just the way it is as technology advances.

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M. Anderson

12-27-2007 19:19:52




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to mark, 12-27-2007 17:59:22  
Mark, I belive you said you looked at a tiwan lathe/bridgeport mill and was insulated that the owner could ask such a ridiculous price. Oh I got your drift your ticked off that he didn't give you the machines afterall it's all just old out dated machines and technology. You get what you pay for QUIT complaining that quality machines still command a desent price and they should as they where top of the line in their day. If you want to learn fine buy some junk tiwain machines and have fun . As far as cnc it's been around since the early/mid 60's but the machinery manufactures still sold manual machines why? because you would not buy a 500,000 mazak to drill holes in angle iron or would you? Right tool for the right job . You will always see manual machines in a machine/tool die shop.When you have to drill some hole or mill a slot would you tie up the cnc machine for that? Most of the good cnc programers started out as machinest with manual machines. As far as you being an a$$ that was your comment not mine but if the shoe fit's you so be it. I worked in a tool and die shop and our manual machines out numbered cnc machnies 3 to one. Good luck with your quest for free machine tools M.Anderson

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135 Fan

12-27-2007 18:46:27




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to mark, 12-27-2007 17:59:22  
Unless a shop is doing a production run or a complicated part, manual machines are still used a lot. I've been in a lot of machine and fabricating shops and even the big ones with CNC machines still have manual machines for certain jobs. Saying everything is done with automatic machines isn't always the case. If this was true nodody would even bother making stick welding machines. The same would be true for a machine shop. You wouldn't want to pay $100 for a $40 part because you had to pay for an expensive CNC machine, a programmer and an operator. I don't think a diesel versus steam locomotive is a fair comparison. It's closer to comparing commercial jets to propellor driven planes. These things are used constantly and the newer technology makes them more efficient and practical. CNC machines are more efficient for some jobs but manual are still a better choice for others. I couldn't blame someone with a good machine holding on to it till he gets a decent price. A good friend or family member would pay the decent price and not try to get it at a bargain. It is rare though. Most of the time it's best not to sell to anyone you know. It saves all kinds of hassles. In some circumstances a buyer will know the seller is desperate and offer pennies on the dollar. While it may not technically be stealing, it's about as close as you can get. Talking advantage of someone isn't right either, although a lot of people do it. If items were sold in an auction, would be fairer. I'm willing to pay to get what I really want and not settle on something that might work or will need to be upgraded. I want to get a good deal but I also don't want a reputation as being cheap. Too bad I didn't have a bunch of good tractor parts for sale. Reading the buyer/seller feedback, there appears to be a lot of unhappy buyers. Sellers too for that matter. Just my perspective. Dave

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135 Fan

12-27-2007 17:47:35




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to M. Anderson, 12-27-2007 14:55:06  
I guess it all comes down to who needs it more. The seller needing money or the buyer needing a "good machine". I would pay considerably more for an older top of the line machine than try to save money and buy a cheap built copy. Some of the copies are good but it my experience, the best shops buy the best machines so they can make the best product. If someone has something for sale and isn't hurting for money, he can ask for what it's worth. I have found some good deals at auctions on stuff other bidders didn't know anything about. One was a $14,000 replacement value Miller diesel welder, that was used for automatic pipeline welding. It could be set up for constant current and constant voltage. I got it $2750. I don't have it any more but got more than that out of it after owning it for about 10 years. Dave

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Tom in NE

12-27-2007 08:36:14




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Hey Davis,
I'll bet it is a real hassle. Have you talked to some of the local machine shops to see if they are interested in your equipment? We have helped out Oconee Machine & Tool in Westminster, SC before. Old Oconee Joe came here to Nebraska in the past and we showed him how to make valve tooling for USEV there in Westminster. That Oconee Joe was quite a character...we all got a got a real kick out of him...sorry he that he's gone now. There are a bunch of machine shops there in SC, but like you say, they probably want something for nothing....
Tom

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Charles (in GA)

12-27-2007 07:21:43




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
I live in a fly-in community. Some of the properties do not have a house, just a shop/hangar, so the owner lives elsewhere. One of the non-resident neighbors (a real nice guy) died suddenly and the people living next door here, waited and when the man's sister came from the far end of the country to tie up his affairs and see what he owned, the next door scoundrel went running over and announced he could help her get rid of all the "junk". She allowed as how that the air compressor (big shop unit) and everything else was to her, was probably useless and yes, he could dispose of it. Within an hour the scoundrel has his buddies over helping haul the stuff off.

Makes me real glad that people don't know what I have, and I come from a line of small families, so no relatives or cousins to come and steal it. I have one brother and his daughter who will get it all.

Charles

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Mike M

12-27-2007 06:39:08




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
A public auction is the only way to go ! And any family that wants anything can come and bid far and square.

I attended an auction last summer with alot of nice stuff the owners were retiring and moving south. They have alot of relatives in the neighborhood that wanted some of their stuff because they knew where it came from and what kinda care it had. The auctioneer made it perfectly clear in his anouncements that if anyone saw any family members bidding that this was in fact to buy and not just there running it up on you. This was the first I have heard this anounced at a sale. That sounded like the right way to do it to me. Let it all go at the sale to the highest bidder and no reserves or shill bidders !

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caterpillar guy

12-27-2007 05:38:41




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Sell it by auction or on line and let them buy it that way with arrangements for pick up so there is an orderly fashion to load. I hope that I don't get into those issues when my parents are gone they have pretty much set it up and who gets what.



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glennster

12-27-2007 05:36:50




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
maybe post a list of some of the equipment you have for sale on this site. i'm pretty sure some guys here would like to pick up some machines. they are handy as heck on the farm, especially for re-doing old iron when parts are no longer available. so far i have accumulated a cincinatti-bickford radial drill press, bridgeport mill, 2 lathes, and two massive wire feed welders. always got my eye open for stuff. the tooling is always the hardest stuff to come by.

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TGIN

12-27-2007 03:59:40




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Had a guy come look at some calves at a farm that I tend for another guy . He was the first one to look at them and give his price and I told him another guy was coming to look at them . The next guy gave our price and hauled them out that day . Well the first guy got mad that we did`nt call him and give him another chance at them , He knew what our price was and should have bid it . He wont come look at them anymore even that he has came and bought calves from me here at the house .

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rockyhawaii

12-26-2007 22:33:52




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
With all the advertising resources available on the internet I wouldn't worry about selling to people I know. And like some others said, there is always the cutting torch or the bridge available. I went through this a while back with a BMW I was selling. Suffice to say the fire department was involved.



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Roy Suomi

12-26-2007 21:10:55




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Ain"t family great ?? I"ve got a SIL that screwed over the whole remaining family..Money does strange things to people..Now , nobody will pi$$ in her mouth if her teeth were on fire...



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Spook

12-26-2007 21:07:46




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Friend of mine went thru that a couple years ago. Thought he had a retirement, but the company went out of business. He had a real nice fab shop going, but the slowdown here in Michigan killed that too. He ended up selling out at 25 cents on the dollar, and now lives with his daughter. Take care of your family, they are usually (not always) the only ones you can count on.



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Jim James

12-27-2007 08:38:10




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Spook, 12-26-2007 21:07:46  
More times than not, when family is involved, the real true colors come out and the remaining family can see what real greed does to people. My mom and her sister has not spoke to the other brother and sister in 13 years all live close. I have seen this time and time again. Public Auction is best way so all parties have the same oper. to purchase and those willing to spend the most money wins. No hard feeling that way. Although some are not even happy that way. Keep family out of your affairs and all will be good.

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TomTex

12-26-2007 20:53:33




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
Before I would give stuff away to a no good tight wad, I would throw if off the river bridge. When I have to sell out the farm because of coming health issues, you can bet that NOBODY will get anything free, I hate vultures/tightwads. Tom



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Davis In SC

12-26-2007 21:05:18




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to TomTex, 12-26-2007 20:53:33  
I made it clear that I will torch cut/ sledgehammer stuff, before I will give it away... One guy said he would call in the mental healh folks, if I did. LOL,,, I really hate to sell to "Friends" They expect a low price, and a lifetime warranty...

Yes, the will-readings can be quite interesting... People come out of the woodwork to steal...



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dave guest

12-26-2007 20:46:19




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to Davis In SC, 12-26-2007 20:29:48  
You ever been to a reading of a will? When my wifes grandpa died, they hadn't found the will, but relatives were already loading up the furniture. Somebody mentioned 6 shotguns but they were already gone. Yard was full of pickup trucks and strange faces loading them.



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JTinNJ

12-27-2007 05:51:17




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to dave guest, 12-26-2007 20:46:19  
My grandfather told my mother that he wanted me to have his guns.At the time I was the only grandson that had any intest in guns at all.Well a few years later he died. A couple of days after the funeral my grandmother aske me if there was anyting of pops that I wanted.I told her I would like to have one of his shotguns.Oh your cousin got that the day after pop died.I did tell my cousin that pop had told my mother that he want me to have his guns.His reply was "There mine and I'm keeping them".I didn't get the guns.

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s.crum

12-27-2007 17:49:14




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to JTinNJ, 12-27-2007 05:51:17  
I had a similar situation with my half sister, the co-executor of Mom and Dad's estate. Mom gave me Dad's guns, 4 rifles and 1 shotgun and the cabnet they were in. Because hospice would soon be coming in for both Mom and Dad, Mom asked me to take the guns home with me. 2 days before the auction half sister forced, I got a phone call from the auctioneer stating that if the guns were not turned over to him on the day of the auction, half sister would report them stolen to the Pa State Police. I talked to the lawyer who advised that I wouldn't want that kind of trouble. So I turned them over.
6 months later when we finally settled the estate, dear half sister wanted to talk so I did. I told her to get back on that plane for California and not try to contact me again. 6 1/2 years later our paths crossed again at a niece's wedding. Dad didn't leave me much, but one thing he did leave me was his ability to hold a grudge.

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mark

12-27-2007 12:39:24




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 Re: Selling Out A Shop.. Hassles in reply to JTinNJ, 12-27-2007 05:51:17  
well....I don't know what stealing means...if money is traded in the transaction...I thought that meant buying?

I have wanted a nice 14" lathe and a smaller bridgeport for a long time. I don't know how to run either of them...but I want to learn. I also know that after I do learn how....for the most part the machines would more or less be giant dust collectors. So, do I want tie up a small fortune in them? NO!

Knowing all too well that CNC machinery has replaced manual equipment in production shops....the old style machines no longer command war prices. I can't help it if that lathe cost X thousand dollars new in 1964....this is (almost) 2008 and lots has changed in the last 44 years. I also don't care what a new Mazak costs because I'm not interested in buying one. I went and looked at an old American 14" lathe a couple weeks ago. He wanted $2500 for it. That is exactly why it continues to sit there. He wants $2500 for an old Enco (Taiwan) mill he has as well. He's about 70 years old....unless things change his kids will come in one day and either sell it for what it's worth or haul it to the scrap yard. I'm not paying $2500 for a $1200-$1500 lathe....nobody else will either. I ask for no guarantees....other than it does what the seller says it will.

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