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Central heat and air problem

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john in la

12-20-2007 22:58:42




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My mom is having problems with her central heat pilot light and asked if I would help her out. It is a natural gas unit.

The problem as she discribes it..... ..
You can light the pilot light in the normal way and it stays on. You turn on the thermostat and the pilot light gets bigger to heat the bulb so the gas will be turned on. The gas rack lights and after the warm up period the blower comes on. When the room tempature gets up the flame goes off and the blower continues for the cool down stage.
If you look into the furnace window you can see the pilot light has stayed lite during this entire time. Even after the gas rack has shut down and the blower is the only thing working.(cool down stage)
Everything seems to be working normal up until this point but the second the blower shuts down the pilot light goes off.
You can re-lite the pilot light and the heater will work normal until it tries to shut down again.
What seems odd to me is that the pilot light stays on after the heat rack has shut down. This shows me it is getting the gas but as soon as the blower shuts down the pilot light goes off. IT seems as if the electrical part that controls the blower is working the pilot light gas. I would not think they are connected but that is what it seems like.

Can anyone point me in the right direction on what to check; repair from here.

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mmguy23119

12-22-2007 08:23:06




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
I had what sounds like the same problem with my furnace this fall. Luckily I checked it's operation a couple weeks before I realy got into the heating season. I grew up with propane heat and propane tractors, so I respect it but I'm not afraid of it. I did several checks myself but to no avail. I have avery good friend who owns a plumbing&heating bussiness. He spent two days(on & off)testing &calling. First words out of his mouth (first visit) "Sound like an electrical ground problem" I said no it cant be. After 2 days checking every thing else we tore into the elec. service box & the ground term was green. Cleaned it & presto!!! $180 in milage! CHECK YOUR ELECTRICAL!!!

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PaulW_NJ

12-22-2007 06:52:08




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to davpal, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Before you do or ask anything else, you need to identify what type of control system you have. Nobody can supply any meaningful advice until you do. There are many generations of gas control systems. Newer systems utilize a control board that handles all control and safety functions. Older systems have a collection of separate control units. Assuming this is an older system, I would check to see if it has a pilot control (Baso) switch. That often is the source of pilot problems.

Newer thermostats use a 24 volt transformer to supply their operating voltage, and actuate the main valve. However, the older ones did not. Instead they had what was called a thermopyle voltage generator . . . a small voltage ( 30 mV ) is generated by the pilot light heating the thermostat bulb and that voltage runs the controls. For these systems, the pilot should always be on. If the pilot goes out, the thermopyle gets cold, stops generating voltage (thinks the pilot is blown out), and it will shut the main valve. In other words, the main gas valve needs the 30 mV generated by the thermopyle to open when the thermostat calls for heat. By lighting the pilot manually, you are kicking off the sequence. When the thermostat is satisfied it turns off the main gas valve.
The fan keeps running, after the thermostat is satisfied, by a fan switch that waits till the air temperature drops a certain number of degrees. But that is separate from the Baso switch. If the Baso switch thinks the pilot is out (even though it isn't), it will shut off the pilot valve. It sounds like that is happening. Otherwise once the main gas burn stops,it should return to pilot only. The fan switch has nothing to do with that.
Did you say you've already replaced the thermostat? Was it the correct one? Dealing with contols is one thing, breaking gas lines to replace the main valve is another. And you need to make sure each component you replace is the correct on in combination with whatever else is in the system. You really need to consider how comfortable you are with that.

Armed with a description of what controls you�re dealing with, a good resource is Allexperts.com . . .

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led

12-21-2007 21:47:37




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Thermostat????? ????



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MartyinVa

12-21-2007 14:17:09




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
John, some gas units have an exhaust fan that must pull a vacuum switch closed. If the exhaust fan is not running that switch will shutdown the pilot. I know your mom won't be able to make this fix(if this is what the problem is) but at least some repair man won't try to swindle her.
Hope this helps.

Marty



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T_Bone

12-21-2007 14:13:16




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Hey John, send me a e-mail


T_Bone



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loveshisallis

12-21-2007 12:46:55




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
John;

Is this an OLDER funnace with a STANDING pilot light, or a newer generation that has the ignitor on it?



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jimlll

12-21-2007 12:28:05




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
John, I want to offer you support, not criticism. I do everything I can myself, I'm more satisfied with the results and I only have myself to blame if the results are not proper.
I purchased a property in another state that had a renter in place, I allowed him to remain in place until the school year was ended. In the meantime they had a complaint with the furnace. I contacted a repair service in that area, they charged me a days labor for two men and wanted to replace the entire furnace, I agreed to have them replace the gas valve...I was charged $560. I think the thermocouple was at fault, but who knows now.
I'm also in LA

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Stan in Oly, WA

12-21-2007 09:21:29




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Hi John,

Frustrating, isn't it? Cleaning the exterior of the pilot light orifice with something like a toothbrush, as per supergrumpy's suggestion, is something your mother could do herself. It is, after all, off after each heating cycle. Remind her to let it cool down first.

I have a couple of suggestions about where your time investigating this problem might be better spent. Since what is happening is very specific, you might be able to get the information you're after from an online site devoted to gas appliance problems or gas heating system problems. The other thing you might research is the reputation of repair companies in your mother's area. Since this kind of research is always done online and by phone, the 1200 miles between you and your mother is not necessarily a problem.

You might try calling stores which sell related gas appliances, but not heating systems, for a recommendation about who to go to for service. Two weeks ago I called a local stove store about a problem I was having with my gas fireplace insert. They didn't service my equipment but gave me the name of the small company who did. The technician who came to service it earlier this week was excellent---quick, careful, thorough, and not very expensive. He spent just over the 1 hour minimum (wasting no time whatsoever, as far as I could tell) and it cost me $120 total. More time than that would have been charged by the 1/4 hour.

I've had to have gas equipment professionally serviced about 6 or 7 times that I can remember, by that many different companies (different locations over the years.) In every single case I felt the the price was fair and the work was excellent.

Good luck, Stan

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Vern-MI

12-21-2007 09:20:33




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Had a Coleman furnace that was doing that so we replaced the control board. It cost $130 five years ago. It is definately out of the range of repair by anyone who is not familiar with the newer controls systems. About a year later there was an odor of schorched wood every once in a while. We stared checking around the hot water heater and flue pipes and also around the furnace. Turns out the exchanger had burned out and was in process of taking out the sheetmetal side wall and scorching the wood on the other side of the drywall. Did some checking and sure enough Coleman had a program to replace that particular model at no cost. Called the local Coleman contractor and they came out and replaced the furnace. They did such a poor job of replacing the furnace that we ended up doing it over ourselves. It's too bad that a person can't just call a qualified repair person and pay a decent price for a job well done. Everybody wants to cheat and steal all the way up to those corporate execs and the bums in Washington.

If you want to price out a control board just for an idea then go to this site...

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supergrumpy

12-21-2007 07:35:00




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
from your detailed description, appears whatever makes the pilot flame bigger is acting up, if it was mine I would hope for a pilot adjustment or cleaning but be prepared for a new valve, I have had gas residue build up over time and partially block the pilot flame

back in the good old days I worked on lots of oil furnaces, the company refused to touch gas units due to liability concerns, oil may make a mess but gas can kill people

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henning

12-21-2007 06:55:24




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
The blower shouldn't have anything to do with the pilot light turning off. You are having a problem with the valve or depending on the age of the furnace an electrical problem that when the furnace is satisfied, it's telling the valve to cut the pilot, I can't tell you without really looking at it, are you fairly good electrically maybe I can help, how old is the furnace...best if you want to try it yourself is to change the valve, but i'd have someone come in and look at it, will probably be better in the long run.

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john in la

12-21-2007 06:47:43




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Thanks for you help guys..... .....

You have been very helpfull



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Goose

12-21-2007 06:43:14




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
I'll say it, too. GET A LICENSED, QUALIFIED TECHNICIAN TO FIX IT!!!!! !!!!! !!

When you consider the possiblity of death by carbon monoxide, burning the house down, etc, this is nothing for a do-it-yourselfer.

I recently hired a local plumber to replace a gas water heater in a rental house we own. I was perfectly capable of doing it myself, and I MIGHT have done it in my own house, but, from a liablity standpoint there was no way I was going to touch it in a rental.

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LilFarmer

12-21-2007 06:20:20




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
Best guess would be a cracked heat exchanger. Call a qualified heating technician to check it out.



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Maybe....John,PA

12-21-2007 02:40:04




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-20-2007 22:58:42  
The pilot light sends gas (heat) to a thermocouple to open the main gas valve when the thermostat calls for heat.

Like this: the flame of the pilot light should be in contact with the thermocouple (probe) that keeps the main gas valve in operation. If the pilot light goes out for some reason, the whole furnace will shut down. The pilot light will be on even when the "burner-rack" is firing the furnace.

I would suspect the main gas valve should be the culprit. Or, the thermocouple is not work'N right.

I would replace the thermocouple that goes to the main gas valve. Cheap. $3-4. If'N that doesn't cure the problem, plan on a replacement GAS VALVE.

Hope this helps. John,PA

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john in la

12-21-2007 05:50:00




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to Maybe....John,PA, 12-21-2007 02:40:04  
The thermocoupler has been replaced and did not help. This is the bulb probe that the pilot light heats up so the gas will be turned on to the heating rack.
The pilot ligh stays on even when the main burner rack is on.
The pilot light stays on even when the main burner rack shuts down but the blower is still on. (cool down stage)
But once the blower shuts down the pilot light goes off.
This is the part that has me stumped. I figure if the gas valve was bad and shutting down when the rack went off the pilot light would go off as soon as the rack shut down. But it does not.
It seem to me (a pure novice) that when the electricty is shut off to the blower this lack of electricty is shutting down the pilot light. I have also considered that the blower going off could be blowing out a weak pilot light.

Now when you say main gas valve; you are talking about the valve on the front of the heater that the thermocoupler hooks to and has the knob you turn and push down to light the pilot light. Right.

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loveshisallis

12-21-2007 12:50:42




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 Re: Central heat and air problem in reply to john in la, 12-21-2007 05:50:00  
John;

I lived in a house once where once in a while the furnace would not work, freezing me out! Turns out, that when the door would open to the basement, just right, it would snuff out the pilot light. It may sound far fetched , but that is how it went for me.



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Bob

12-21-2007 06:29:38




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 I'm ALL for do it yourself... in reply to john in la, 12-21-2007 05:50:00  
I'm ALL for "do it yourself", but only FOOLS "practice" gas appliance repair via the 'net!

SORRY, but I had to say it... the life you save may be your own!



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john in la

12-21-2007 06:46:43




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 Re: I'm ALL for do it yourself... in reply to Bob, 12-21-2007 06:29:38  
Well since I am about 1200 miles from the heater right now it does not seem I will be doing any work on the unit myself.
My mother sure ain't going to fix it.

My mom only asked if I had a idea of what it may be so she could be prepaired to know the cost effective outcome. Have you ever been a 75 year old woman and tried to deal with backstabing home repair people????? I think not!!!

The one thing my mom did teach me was.....
If you do not have something construtive to add to the conversation you just pass it by.

SORRY, but I had to say it...

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alg

12-21-2007 22:00:06




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 Re: I'm ALL for do it yourself... in reply to john in la, 12-21-2007 06:46:43  
John, The blower should not affect the pilot.The combustion chamber is seperate from the blower ,unless you have a cracked heat exchanger.Could be a bad gas valve.Check all the electrical connection and see if they are tight.Are you sure it doesn't have electronic ignition.?



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alg

12-21-2007 22:04:45




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 Re: I'm ALL for do it yourself... in reply to alg, 12-21-2007 22:00:06  
John, another thought.Have her check to see if the "Red" knob on the gas control valve is in the proper position.Sometimes if they are not in the right position they will act up.After lighting the pilot make suer she turns it to the "on" position.



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Bob

12-21-2007 08:41:03




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 Re: I'm ALL for do it yourself... in reply to john in la, 12-21-2007 06:46:43  
John,

1.) I know EXACTLY you mean about the elderly Mom thing. My Mom passed away only a few years ago, in her mid-80's, and I was an only child, so I dealt with EVERYTHING she needed, and the crap that folks try to pull on the elderly.

2.) I have workedin the gas furnace repair field, and have had quite a bit of training, and have seen and heard of what can happen when well-meaning (but untrained) folks try to repair these things themselves.

3.) You are yapping that YOU are NOT going to fix it, only want something to tell her, but in the same post state you HAVE been working on it!

4.) If you care about your Mom, and don't care to listen to MY advice, at least listen to Goose and LilFarmer... they are telling it like it is!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to you, John!

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