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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

heat pump

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circus

12-18-2007 03:29:23




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Heat pump. Got the fools brush off while looking for an efficient furnace after paying $800 for 400 gal. of propane. So, why not bury 1000 ft of water line and buy a heat pump? It would feel so good to tell the propane guy to get lost. Have you lived with a heat pump? What is it like? Wisconsin.




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circus

12-22-2007 07:43:54




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 I'll do it! in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  
I'll do it. Wonder where I can find a back hoe for my tractor?



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Rick Kr

12-19-2007 12:06:48




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 Re: heat pump in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  
Circus,

I have been running geothermal for 3.5 years in Mid-Michigan. I have a horizontal loop with quite a bit of pipe (4500'). If you have a deep pond you can put a heat exchanger in the bottom. Michigan soil temp is around 55-56 F. My field is 8 foot deep.

It cost a little more up front, but my neighbor with the same house is burning tank after tank of propane. 2 years ago he said $900 month in propane, with prices now it has to be up from that.

To air condition the house it is considerably cheaper also, then a conventional system.

Rick

Mine is forced air, works great.

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JMS/.MN

12-18-2007 08:42:09




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 Re: heat pump in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  
Heat pumps come in two styles- air source and ground source. Air source pumps use outside air, and are limited to heating a house until outside temps are about 15 degrees. Ground source pumps can be sized to provide all of your heat, and their heat source can be a well, or buried tubing using fluid or air. You'll need a lot more than 1000 feet, but talk to some installers for the different options for geothermal. High initial cost, low annual expense, long payoff.

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jhill52

12-18-2007 06:11:20




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 Re: heat pump in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  
I live in the thumb of Michigan and I have had a
Geothermal heat pump for 15 yrs. My bill for heating and cooling runs $700- $800 /yr for a 1450 sq ft house. I do get a break from my elect utility on the power because I have a wood burner for backup so they can shut off my heatpump for up to 2 hrs under extreme demands for them. They size heat pumps to run all the time at 15 degrees F so below that you need supplemental heat. I fire up the wood burner I have for backup or put on a sweater,

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Howard H.

12-18-2007 05:27:45




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 Re: heat pump in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  

My boss has a beautiful, huge home and they installed geothermal. It works wonderfully, but the upfront cost was very high. I'd guess his house to be about 8,000 square feet with 10' ceilings and huge "vista" windows throughout and I think he had to sink 9 200' deep holes.

I was just talking the heating and air guy that installed it at the Christmas party last Friday.

I wondered about going laterally instead of straight down - since out at the farm, Dad has acres in every direction from his house and barns. The H&A guy said they had done one similar to what I described and they are very curious to see how it works this winter. The guy buried all the lines himself and put them down about 9 feet.

Any more shallow than that and you are getting into the natural heating and cooling of the ground which reduces it's effectiveness.

They also put a thermal bridge gel coating along the line to insure a good contact with the soil for heat exchange...

The H&A guy said they were busy as all heck, though, since so many new houses around here are going in with it instead of traditional. I think it is easier to roll the cost into the upfront cost of the house, as opposed to people just wanting to add it at that much expense...


Howard

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circus

12-18-2007 04:21:28




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 Using ground heat not outside air in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  
Plan using buried water line as a heat sourse Guessing 50 degrees.



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David - OR

12-18-2007 05:17:20




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 Re: Using ground heat not outside air in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 04:21:28  
You are close at the "50 degree" estimate. The seasonal average air temperature of Green Bay, Wisconsin is 45 degrees. So that is also going to be the mean ground temperature 30 feet down.

At a practical depth for horizontal loops, the ground temperature fluctuates seasonally about the mean temp of 45 degrees. As you pump heat out of the ground, the loop temperature will drop, but with a reasonable sized loop it won't get below freezing.

The heat pump size is chosen based on the peak heat load of the house, which in turn is determined through a Manual-J calculation based on the size of the house, insulation, doors and windows, construction quality etc, plus the ASHRAE 97.5 percentile design temp for your location. (If you have accurate data of your past propane usage, you can instead combine this with historic weather data to derive the heat load.)

You will have to have a source of supplemental heat (like your current propane furnace) to cover the (few) days it is really, really cold (like below 0 degrees (F)). Statistically, over the full heating season, 90 plus percent of your heating will come from the heat pump, with the supplemental heat kicking in only on the coldest days. This avoids the need to badly oversize the unit to cover the rare extremes of weather. The supplemental heat comes on, yes, but not very often. Your annual climate (8000 heating degree days) is cold, sure, but ground source heat pumps are succeeding in Alaska, Canada, and other even colder places.

The size of the ground loop will be a function of the heat pump size and the heat load of the house. Typical rule-of-thumb would be about 400 feet of tubing per ton of capacity. I suspect you'll need a 3 or 4 ton unit but that depends on the size of your house. Figure roughly 1200 to 1600 feet of horizontal loop tubing. This can be laid out in trenches 10 feet apart in a "slinky" arrangement -- it doesn't need to use all that much land area.

One retrofit obstacle is the sizing of your existing ductwork (unless you happen to have central AC) Furnaces produce hotter air than do heat pumps, so they don't move as much air per BTU, thus the ductwork tends to be undersized for a heat pump. A lot depends on the layout of your specific house.

The main obstacle to saving money with ground source heat pumps is that they are still a boutique product. The local specialty HVAC contractors typically tack a huge markup onto what's a relatively simple unit. This stands in contrast to the more robust competition for air source heat pumps or conventionally furnaces. This may make it difficult for the savings to pencil out for you, even at the current high cost of propane.

To give you an idea of what is possible, I heat and cool my 6000 square foot house using a 4 ton capacity ground source heat pump. It costs me around $60 per month in electricity for the coldest and warmest months. The total electricity usage for the entire heating season runs about $250.

Now, this is in Northwest Oregon with an average winter of 4700 heating degree days (not as cold as Wisconsin). The mean ground temperature is around 53 degrees (not 45). 1/3 of my house is an underground basement with very little heat loss. I designed the ductwork, sized the heat pump, and trenched in the ground loop coils myself, so I took more care with these steps than a typical contractor would.

The results have been spot on to the theoretical numbers based on actual weather, and I have been quite pleased with them.

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Howard H.

12-18-2007 16:45:36




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 Re: Using ground heat not outside air in reply to David - OR, 12-18-2007 05:17:20  

David -

Appreciate all your comments and information - what would you say about a lateral set of lines instead of drilling straight down?? In terms of depth, lining the trench, etc...

Out here it would cost about $1400 per 200 foot hole (according to the HVAC guy at the Christmas party), but no one seems sure what depth for trenching would be acceptable/optimum...

What resources would you recommend for estimating sizes on cooling loops versus area cooled/heated??

Thanks a lot,
Howard

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woodbutcher

12-18-2007 05:15:14




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 Re: Using ground heat not outside air in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 04:21:28  
It sounds like you're describing geothermal heat pumps. I have used mine for 13 years with no problems, even when the temp. outside got down in the low teens for a short time. No part of the system is exposed to outdoor weather. Where the water lines leave the house they are four feet underground to the wells where they go down 210'. It can't sense what the outdoor temp. is. I live in northeast Texas, and it works great here.
Butch

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woodbutcher

12-18-2007 05:14:33




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 Re: Using ground heat not outside air in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 04:21:28  
It sounds like you're describing geothermal heat pumps. I have used mine for 13 years with no problems, even when the temp. outside got down in the low teens for a short time. No part of the system is exposed to outdoor weather. Where the water lines leave the house they are four feet underground to the wells where they go down 210'. It can't sense what the outdoor temp. is. I live in northeast Texas, and it works great here.
Butch

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Robert Huntress

12-18-2007 03:40:25




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 Re: heat pump in reply to circus, 12-18-2007 03:29:23  
A heat pump will heat a house that isn't that cold. What it is is an air conditioner that has a reversing valve, so that instead of taking heat from the inside and releasing it outside, it takes the heat from outside and releases it inside. Where I live in Tenn, they are common, since they do not have that cold an outside temp. In Wisconsin, however, it gets very cold. Much colder than a heat pump is going to be able to draw enough heat to warm your house with. Remember that the less heat that is outside, the less heat your heat pump is going to be able to draw to release into your house, when you need even more heat.

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uncle

12-18-2007 04:07:54




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 Re: heat pump in reply to Robert Huntress, 12-18-2007 03:40:25  
That's a great description on Heat Pumps. I live in Arkansas and every winter, when it gets cold (30's), I have to turn off the pump and just use the electric heat elements. The heat pump will never keep up and it's cheaper to just run the electric.
Brian



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IH2444

12-18-2007 09:28:52




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 Re: heat pump in reply to uncle, 12-18-2007 04:07:54  
Most heat pumps will work fine below 30 now.
Well down into the teens anyway.



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CNKS

12-18-2007 17:31:32




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 Re: heat pump in reply to IH2444, 12-18-2007 09:28:52  
Mine (air source) has worked down to 10 so far, supplemental heat has never come on. Costs about $100/month, that is cheaper than natural gas.



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