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Running a service to a barn

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SBogusta

07-09-2001 10:50:14




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I'm looking for some info. on electrical service requirements. I want to run power 150 ft to a barn. I was told it would be cheaper to buy conduit and use #10 wire, than to use underground cable. My home has a 200 amp service to it now. In the barn I want to power a 220 AC buzz box as well as a compressor and some other tools. I would like to get what I need at The Home Depot. Also this service has to go underground. Any tips would help.

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Jon Kraatz

07-11-2001 15:39:36




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
Lots of good advice here. The best being to get a copy of the latest code and consult an electrician. May be the cheapest life insurance you ever bought. Two thoughts I would ad though. First,you want to balance the load you are taking from the main box in the house down both sides of the box. If both sides of the box are imbalanced as to normal load with alternating current (AC) one of the sides will return excessive current through the nuetral and to the ground rod. This is a common occurence with residential rewiring and most people don't even know it is happening. They just notice that they are blowing light bulbs frequently and that the TV has a bad picture, etc. . It can be dangerous though, so check it out and make sure the sides are balanced as much as possible in normal use. Second thing is the latest electrical code forbids grounding metal pipe in a building to anything. Most people are not aware of this either because it has been common practice for so long. The reason is sometime in the future a person will probably replace a piece of that metal pipe with plastic and destroy the path to ground. When they do, your system has lost its safety wire. I am a mechanic, machinist etc. and certainly no electrician. Reading a update book on the latest electical code changes certainly opened my eyes to a few things around my shop. Hopefully it keeps someone from getting hurt or killed and if it does , the cost was very very cheap insurance.

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Greaseman

07-10-2001 09:50:54




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
I agree with most everything everybody else said above, just rtemember one thing: the higher the number of wire means it a smaller wire, you need a smaller numbered wire (number 2). like a 12 gauge shot gun is bigger than a 16 gauge.



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easy_irv

07-10-2001 03:37:42




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
I did this several years ago. I used #2 wire, rated for direct burial, ran it in 4in pvc, along with a phone line. I have never had any problems. Some times here in michigan frost heaves things up. make sure you follow the code for depth. Get the color coded wire and make sure you have a good ground. Irv



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paul

07-09-2001 21:40:02




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
I'm a simple dirt farmer who's looking to rewire some stuff too, sounds like you are getting good advise.

Really, really try to follow your local codes. I know, a lot of wiring gets done without inspections, but a lot of things burn down too. And insurance comanies don't pay... If you're going to bypass the local stuff, at least get the $10 book on Wiring Simplified & follow the national regs. Please.

10 gauge is not big enough for what you are doing. I'm not qualified to say what you need, but more than 10. When the wires are too thin, the wire heats up, and the voltage drops. When the voltage drops, this harms your saw, drill, compresser, etc. Go with a big enough wire.

I am not qualified to know, but it will be less desirable to pull more than 60 amps from your house connection. Big loads like the welder will cause dimming lights & such as they bleed off power from what your house is using. (This is not so bad if you use big wires & do everything right, but you mentioned 10 gauge - problems...) You would probably be much happier if there is a way to legally tap off from your meter connection with a dedicated 100 - 200 amp box for just the shop. I'd check with the power company, maost are happy you will be using more electricity, & their insurance companies are real happy to have proper connections (liability laws being what they are in the USA) so most bend over backwards to help you upgrade.

--->Paul

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Raymond Bagwell

07-10-2001 10:21:18




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 Re: Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to paul, 07-09-2001 21:40:02  
If the service on your house will handle about 60 amps of additional load and you have breaker space for a 100 amp breaker then I would do the following. Use 2" PVC conduit not water pipe and all conduit fittings and cement. This is all gray piping not white or black. Dig you a trench where you will clear 24 inches from the ground surface to the top of the conduit. Run 3 # 3 THHN stranded wires to a 100 amp 240/120 volt panel in your barn. This should do for anything you want to install out there. Drive an 8 ft. ground rod galv or copper depending on local codes and run a number 6 bare copper wire from the ground rod to the grounding bar on the panel. If there is any metal water piping in the barn you will need to ground it back to the 100 amp panel. Put a string in the conduit as you lay it and then tie a rope to the string and pull it through the conduit so you can use it to pull your wire. Use a wire pulling compound to help slide the wire through the conduit

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Big Jake

07-10-2001 10:55:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to Raymond Bagwell, 07-10-2001 10:21:18  
THHN is not approved for wet locations & per NEC
code book definitions-a trench is considered a wet location. Also code only requires an 18" deep trench for nonmetallic rigid conduit(pvc)



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chris mf35

07-12-2001 18:36:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to Big Jake, 07-10-2001 10:55:34  
dear jake.
go find some wire only marked thhn. it all has multi labels. most sayes thhn/thwn or mtw. art 310 says this is good in any wet location. thhn is just a general name for this wire, please get out of the book and into the real world instead of slamming people for what you know not. if you only dig an 18" ditch , you then add a 2.5" OD pipe and then take in account any dirt that fell in will working you probally won't have 14" of cover.art 310 says 18" of MINIMIUM COVER, 24"if under a driveway.i guess you need to learn to read the NEC as well as minds(sence you know he's not going under a driveway ETC.)
ps just to bust you bubble i don't claim to know how to spell.

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etshobby

07-09-2001 19:27:27




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
most ul codees and electrical inspectors of which I have done will not ok a box as large as the house . You may sub feed as you are going to be doing off the 200 amp in the house you can use then a 150 amp box, sub feed no main breaker required in the shop box but the house will have to have one rated say at 150 amp. others have mentioned adding up what will be on at the same time in the barn but also dont forget the house also will be calling for juice so dont pull so heavy you are taxing both at max. The 150 amp I will say from experience is more then enough . I use an lot of 220 at a time there could be three table saws going a large industrial planer and jointer plus lights and a three phase converter two large dust blowers 5hp each. the wire size you run needs to be at least as big as the box reguires for 150 amp and one size up for aluminum.

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KURT

07-09-2001 14:46:25




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
I just built a new home and a garage. I would run a 100 amp service out to your barn (with under ground cable) use a double pole 100 amp breaker on your 200 amp main box. I dont know what size compressor you got but a good size one will probably need 30 amps double pole which is 10 gage wire.



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Neil

07-09-2001 15:03:38




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 Re: Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to KURT, 07-09-2001 14:46:25  
If you use a 100 Amp breaker you have to wire for 100 Amps to the box in the barn. Don't have a chart handy, but this will not be 10 gauge.
Like someone else said, get a book on residential and farm wiring.
Or find a friend who is an electrician and ask what is correct.
Better yet, do both and compare the answers.



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Dean

07-09-2001 12:43:07




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
Add up all the requirements for your barn. Let's say it ends up being around 100 amp. Then you'll need a 100 amp load center in the barn. Now look at your 200 amp house box. I seriously doubt you have anything like 100 amp of extra capacity in the house box. Yes, lots of folks cheat on this. I suspect many of them are the ones you read about in the paper under the heading "house fire kills entire family".

Here's what I did. My utility places a spare 100 amp breaker in the underground pedestal they install. So I ran my cable from the pedestal, bypassing the house entirely, directly to the barn. In fact, this is how they require you do it here. Check with your utility first before you do something that you regret.

Running cable in conduit is a waste of time and money. You'll have to use larger cable in the conduit as you don't have the ground to cool the cable like you do when using UF wire. And the conduit costs money.

In the electrical department at HD, they sell the "codes" book. It's a couple of bucks and can save you thousands. Be sure you learn the difference between copper and aluminum wire and what "NO-OX" is as well.

Good luck on your project.

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Joe

07-09-2001 12:18:06




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
If you run a buzz box you will require heavier wire than #10. I am planning on running a similar setup and will probably be running #2 wire. The heavier the feed wire is the less voltage drop you get when running the buzz box at high current settings. Don,t forget you will have other loads such as lights and possibly other power tools. Make sure you allow for this when calculating wire size. I have stuff like a compressor and table saw both of which draw 20+ amps. The table saw will not be on when I weld but the compressor may kick in randomly. My buzz box will draw 67 amps full load. I did my voltage drop calculation based on 100 amps just to be safe. This may be over-kill but experience has shown if you put something in that is not heavy enough for future use you will end up paying twice. Also measure the total run length for your calculation, not just the distance from building to building ( 200 amp panel to your sub panel in the barn).

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Branden

07-09-2001 11:43:08




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 Re: Running a service to a barn in reply to SBogusta, 07-09-2001 10:50:14  
There was quite the "heated" discussion on this topic not too long ago. If there is a way to search the archives, if they exist. If not, I'm sure someone will answer your questions.

Branden



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