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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

hardfacing question

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lumpy

10-04-2007 19:03:12




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I need to buildup some tooth shanks and hardface the bottom of an excavator bucket. My 20 years of heavy equipment experience tells me to use buildup rod and hardface rod with an arc welder. Our parts replacer/floor sweeper says a few passes with a wire welder is sufficient. I don't want to have to do it again in a few months. Who's right? And give me some reasons to show me if I'm wrong or not.

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jokers

10-07-2007 09:18:49




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
It sounds like your floor sweeper has just enough info to be dangerous, LOL! He might not even realize that different types of wire are available and that his experience, if he has any, might have involved a hardface wire.

I can`t say that I have extensive hardfacing experience but that which I`ve done has always been buildup rod and a hardface rod specifically matched to my intended purpose. So far I haven`t hand any complaints. A good friend of mine who worked maintenance for several years in a paper mill swears by spray torches for build up and hardfacing. Since I`ve grown to respect this guy I`d have to give them a look.

I suspect that you may have feed problems using hardfacing wire and a single drive roll welder but I`ve never tried it.

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135 Fan

10-07-2007 21:15:44




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to jokers, 10-07-2007 09:18:49  
For wire hardfacing you need special drive rolls because the outer steel wire is very soft and will have more feeding problems than MIG wire or regular flux-core. A shorter gun would help and make sure to keep the gun cable as straight as possible. Dave



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135 Fan

10-05-2007 19:07:35




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
I haven't heard of preheating a bucket before hard facing. For most hardfacing the maximum you can put on is 2 layers or it will spall off. On a bucket 1 layer would probably be better and if it needed to be built up could be done with build up rod or wire or 7018 or MIG as much as needed. For a lot of types of hardfacing it is supposed to have cracks in the deposit. They refer to them as checking and they help relieve the stress from the hard material fused to the softer base. I worked in a shop that did open arc chromium carbide overlay inside of large pipe for oil sands slurry. It was more like flux-core welding than mig because all the hard material was inside the soft core wire. Very bad fumes! Chromium is one of the worst for harmful fumes. The hardfaced pipe would last up to a year and a half and regular pipe was lucky to last 3 months! They kept very busy just preparing replacement piping for when the hardfaced pipe finally wore out. Generally hardfacing is applied at a lower current than normal welding to prevent too much admixture with the base metal which would lessen the advantage of the hardfacing. It would not be as hard because it would mix more with the softer steel. You need to select the proper type of hardfacing for the application. When you have more abrasion resistance you lose impact strength and vice/versa. The best place for procedures and recommendations would be Stoody. I'm sure they would have a web site. Hope this helps. Dave

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NC Wayne

10-05-2007 15:01:06




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
Hey Lumpy, if you've got a large area to build up check with Cronatron before you do anything. You can get mild steel plate from them that has hardfacing predeposited on it and all you need to do is weld it to the bucket with your MIG machine and then, if you want, cover the attaching weld with hardfacing. They have plain flat plate, as well various shapes already cut out and ready to weld on. If I remember right most of their stuff is "as installed" hardened to a Rockwell R65 or close to it, and can workharden even more. Like anything pertaining to hardfacing the stuff isn't cheap but pound for pound you can hardface alot larger area, alot faster than you can doing it all by hand with rods. Plus you get better coverage which means more protection and longer life for the bucket. I did a 980 CAT loader bucket with the flat plate several years. It's operating in a "pit gravel" operation loading trucks, digging material, etc and it showes very minimal wear after more than two years of everyday use. One thing I just thought about, a torch won't touch the stuff so you have to have a plasma to cut it. Either way good luck, you've got a job ahead of you.

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tiresntracks

10-05-2007 11:02:22




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
I hardfaced the 3' bucket on our 312 excavator a couple of months ago. I did it with stick and used almost 50 lbs. of rod. I have hardfaced other stuff with wire and had good results, too. I prefer to hardface with stick, but its just what I'm used to. If you are going to use stick, don't mess around with little 1/8" electrodes, use a big rod so you can put down some material in a hurry, otherwise it will take forever. Hardfacing is way easier to do if you can turn the bucket so you are always welding on a flat surface. I'm not saying that you can't hardface out of position, just that its easier and faster flat. If the bucket is already thin, you might want to plate it with some AR400 or other wear plate instead of hardfacing it. Hardfacing doesn't contract at the same rate as the base metal when it cools, and will cause thin material to crack.

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lumpy

10-05-2007 03:51:31




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
Thanks for all the replies guys. I have always used an arc welder the way most of you mentioned and have had good luck. A wire welder has it's place but it just doesn't work as good on 1 inch plate steel. I know you can get different/specialized wire but all we use is regular .35 gas sheilded wire for everything.



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Stan in Oly, WA

10-05-2007 08:32:33




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-05-2007 03:51:31  
Hi lumpy,

You can get good results with your wirefeed in this application if you prep the workpiece properly. Raise the temperature of the whole excavator bucket to 800 degrees F. That will reduce the cold lapping problem. If you don't have an oven the size of a tool shed (as so many of us don't) then stick, as you've already decided, is the better way to go.

There hadn't been any lunatic advice on this topic yet, and I think it's important that every POV be represented.

All the best, Stan

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RobMD

10-05-2007 08:32:17




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-05-2007 03:51:31  
One thing I can say is, you're going to take a lonnng while to surface that thing. Use a fan to blow all those welding fumes away for your health. (from the stick flux)



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T_Bone

10-05-2007 01:04:35




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
Hi lumpy,

You can use 7018 or E70s to build up a base for adding hardface electrodes. Besure to check your hardsurface electrode recomendations for the correct base metal prep.

What this base metal build up does is absorb the shock that the hardfacing gets thus it will last longer without fracturing.

As to the process used, Using Mig it's hard not to cold lap the first 3/8" or so. This is not a problem with stick rods so in that sence, stick would be a better choice for this application for hardfacing.

T_Bone

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mph

10-04-2007 22:23:14




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
Hardfaced tracks and idelers on a D6 this spring. Used DC welder and lincoln hardface rods. Just looked at some tracks I did 2 years ago holding up good. Hard to beat them old DC welders.



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CalJim

10-04-2007 21:47:10




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
I have a "Spray Torch" for my oxy/acetylene setup. It can harden metal for earth contact or build up shafts,etc. depending on which powder you use. CalJim



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335LP

10-04-2007 21:38:42




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
You can get hardface wire to use in welder too. There are lots of different types of hardface rod for stick welders and some don't work well with AC and better with DC and reversed polarity. I've always used Stoody hardface rod and found some I run well with AC welder on deep ripper shanks. Now most everyone tacks tungsten caps on ripper shanks and points. Any good local welding supply should be able to help with what you need for that application.

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K.W. in Tx

10-04-2007 20:48:39




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
Build it up and burn (Metal to Earth) hardsurface rod over that. It will last for a long time.



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TomTex

10-04-2007 19:42:16




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
Use stick welder on DC, and Lincoln hard surfacing rods. Go to lincold site and look up the rod, they have several hard surface rods depending on application. tom



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X22

10-04-2007 19:20:55




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
My father used to used tungsten carbide powder in a tube. It was applied using an oxygen-acetylene torch.



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sd pete

10-04-2007 19:08:44




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 Re: hardfacing question in reply to lumpy, 10-04-2007 19:03:12  
You are



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